Use of Tori and Dori

Indiana Gardener · 15 Oct 2007

I've been experimenting with making a digital chop mark for on my web site, Megumi Aviary, as a way of watermarking my photos.

I've done some looking on google and it seems that "torigoya" 鳥小屋 is used for an aviary of finches, etc.; while "dorigoya" 鶏小屋 is used for one containing chickens?

Or is it a matter of one of those dulled consonant rules?
Thanks.

Mike Cash · 16 Oct 2007

If you got "dori" it was as a result of splitting a compound word in the wrong place, I think.

Is there someone named Megumi associated with your aviary? As it is a common first name for girls use of the の may cause people to think "Megumi's Aviary" instead of "Megumi Aviary".

epigene · 16 Oct 2007

Yes, Mike is right.

"Tori" turns into "dori" when it falls behind other kanjis in a compound. The prime example is Onaga-dori. (Of course, the rule has exceptions: Niwatori (chicken))

For this reason, "tori-goya" is "tori-goya" for all birds. In the two examples you gave, both are read "tori-goya" and are identified different only when reading. When you want to specify chicken, it is commonly described "niwatori-goya."

I agree with Mike also about "Megumi Aviary."

HTH!

Indiana Gardener · 16 Oct 2007

My Japanese garden is named Megumi no Sono - Garden of Grace (meaning actual grace, not a name... I hope?). I'd not even considered it being a person's name.
I was hoping to name my aviary to match, but now I'm stumped...
Is there a better way to convey it being the word grace and not the name?
That straightens out the use of tori-goya, but any suggestions about phrasing the name would be much appreciated.

Mike Cash · 16 Oct 2007

Your way isn't necessarily wrong, it just lends itself to misinterpretation. If you don't mind straightening out some confusion every once in a great while, no problem.

Or you could do something like 鶏小屋恵

diceke · 16 Oct 2007

Indiana Gardener said:
My Japanese garden is named Megumi no Sono - Garden of Grace (meaning actual grace, not a name... I hope?). I'd not even considered it being a person's name.
I was hoping to name my aviary to match, but now I'm stumped...
Is there a better way to convey it being the word grace and not the name?
That straightens out the use of tori-goya, but any suggestions about phrasing the name would be much appreciated.

Adding a kana suffix following the kanji stem is just one way to disambiguate kanji with multiple meanings.

eg. 恵 is a name
eg. 恵み is grace.

epigene · 16 Oct 2007

diceke said:
Adding a kana suffix following the kanji stem is just one way to disambiguate kanji with multiple meanings.
eg. 恵 is a name
eg. 恵み is grace.

Diceke-san,

When used as a proper noun, the hiragana "mi" can be omitted.

@Indiana Gardener,
Maybe you should try from an entirely different perspective for a smarter name?

Mike Cash · 16 Oct 2007

epigene said:
Maybe you should try from an entirely different perspective for a smarter name?

Taking inspiration from his avatar, I think プロジェクト尾長鳥 might be nice.

Indiana Gardener · 16 Oct 2007

鶏小屋恵み ... So adding the hiragana "mi" doesn't work since this is the name of an aviary/hobby farm, but not the name of a person - being that's it's not a common noun?

Maybe you should try from an entirely different perspective for a smarter name?

Perhaps so. I'd not thought of the difficulty of translating some ideas. It gets tricky.

プロジェクト尾長鳥 ... That would be good, except I'm also working with Tomaru, struggling with Ohiki (I may leave this to a friend in a warmer climate), and attempting to improve Tuzo (not actually a Japanese breed)
Thanks.
Bye for now,

Indiana Gardener

JimmySeal · 16 Oct 2007

鶏小屋恵 - Aviary "Megumi", Megumi Aviary
恵の鶏小屋 - Megumi's Aviary, Aviary of Grace
恵みの鶏小屋 - Aviary of Grace

epigene · 16 Oct 2007

I did some checking... :joyful:

FYI, an aviary, such as at a zoo, is called 飼鳥園（しちょうえん）

The Japanese Christian term for "grace of God" is 恩寵（おんちょう）

恩寵飼鳥園（おんちょうしちょうえん）？？？
Or 恩寵飼鶏園（おんちょうしけいえん）？

The problem here is that I couldn't find an example of the kanji 鳥 being replaced by 鶏 in 飼鳥園 .
Maybe you can coin a new word?

diceke · 16 Oct 2007

JimmySeal said:
鶏小屋恵 - Aviary "Megumi", Megumi Aviary
恵の鶏小屋 - Megumi's Aviary, Aviary of Grace
恵みの鶏小屋 - Aviary of Grace

The third one best makes sense.

Mike Cash · 16 Oct 2007

epigene said:
I did some checking... :joyful:

FYI, an aviary, such as at a zoo, is called 飼鳥園（しちょうえん）

Maybe you can coin a new word?

There is the word 鳥舎 (ちょうしゃ), but I believe it is not commonly known or used, except among bird raising enthusiasts.

JimmySeal · 16 Oct 2007

There's also 鶏舎 (けいしゃ), which seems to be a popular kanji kentei word.

Indiana Gardener · 16 Oct 2007

I'm not sure that I should go with keisha. It sounds so similar to geisha. LOL

The Japanese Christian term for "grace of God" is 恩寵（おんちょう）

I've found that even on Japanese sites, some use megumi and some onchou. The lyrics to "Amazing Grace" most often seem to use megumi? Is one word favored over the other for any certain reason?

I'm not really a zoo (just a breeding program), but would 飼鳥園 (kaidori en) still apply?
Thanks.
Bye for now,

Indiana Gardener

epigene · 16 Oct 2007

Personally, I'd prefer 鳥舎 (chousha) or 鶏舎 (keisha) is fine, much better than 飼鳥園 (shichouen).

恵み (megumi) is a plain Japanese word understood by all.
恩寵 (onchou) can be called a "technical term" restricted to Bible-reading Christians in Japan.

恵みの鶏舎 (megumi no keisha) looks nice in print, but it still can be misunderstood as an aviary owned by Megumi when heard...

Indiana Gardener · 17 Oct 2007

So the hiragana "mi" is omitted from the spoken phrase like Minohiki(-dori)?

As long as it would look fine in print is the main thing since it will be used basically as ornamentation on my site.

The thing is, I've already published work under my farm name (for about 3-4 years) and it would be confusing for me to switch to onchou.

There are several named poultry farms/breeding programs here in the US. An easy to pronounce Japanese word kind of sets mine apart (especially since I raise Japanese fowl)

恵み (megumi) is a plain Japanese word understood by all.

That would seem better (being more widely understood), if 恵みの鶏舎 would do for a chop mark (basically for reading vs. speaking)?
Thanks.
Bye for now,

Indiana Gardener

Use of Tori and Dori

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