Thoughts on AJATT? Immersion technique

There's a site (I'm sure many of you know of it) called Alljapaneseallthetime, and the owner of the site (who became fluent in 18 months) recommends a pure immersion without relying on traditional books, except Remembering the Kanji, and using an SRS program to study them.

I've recently just started Pimsleur, and I am picking up on things quickly. I can now watch anime and pick out a few words here and there, occasionally with a true understanding of the context. However, Khatzumoto from the site says to throw programs like that in the trash ("too much English not enough Japanese") and simply watch/listen to anime (and other sources) with no subtitles. I can't imagine you'd learn anything from this. But he claims the idea is to just get used to hearing how the words sound, meanwhile be studying kanji.

Considering I actually feel I am making progress with the Pimsleur I just started, I am reluctant to stop using it and just listen to stuff I don't understand. I do believe there is something to his method though, as others have learned quickly from his instructions, but I just wanted to get feedback and advice from people who have tried both themselves. Thanks!

I will never be able to understand how sitting in one's bedroom watching Japanese cartoons can be construed as "immersion"....

I always picture a non-English speaking person learning by watching Bart Simpson , or the kids on South Park or Family Guy and how that would turn out.

Uncle Frank said:

I always picture a non-English speaking person learning by watching Bart Simpson , or the kids on South Park or Family Guy and how that would turn out.

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Better than you might think. My son credits having watched every single episode of South Park online for his getting 875 on his first ever try at TOEIC. (My kids were raised monolingual Japanese speakers so he certainly didn't get it from me).

I love all of the shows I named , LOL. South Park makes me feel like they are speaking a different language , something about the tone of their voices , I only get about 2/3's of what they are saying. As a kid , I learned to read with comic books and the weekends and afternoons were filled with cartoon shows. I guess I have never grown up.

Kinetic11 said:

Considering I actually feel I am making progress with the Pimsleur I just started, I am reluctant to stop using it and just listen to stuff I don't understand. I do believe there is something to his method though, as others have learned quickly from his instructions, but I just wanted to get feedback and advice from people who have tried both themselves. Thanks!

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I haven't tried either but I do know that not all people learn the same way and some ways work for some people better than others. In other words, if you feel Pimsleur is working for you, keep with it. From what you're saying, Pimsleur's verbal/repetitive approach sounds similar to AJATT's. Why not do both?

The AJATT method is actually quite a bit more in-depth than 'sit and watch cartoons'. It -does- involve studying kanji, and studying vocabulary in the form of full written sentences. Watching Japanese shows instead of English shows isn't artificial immersion - getting the artificial immersion involves everything - change your computer and cell phone to Japanese, make a playlist of all Japanese audio, etc, etc. Use earbuds rather than headphones so you still have Japanese in one ear even when you have to interact in English.

That said, I don't think it's a very practical method. Krashen's input hypothesis is the argument behind using immersion, but the input hypothesis talks about -comprehensible- input, which is estimated at knowing 90% or more of the vocabulary in what you're reading or listening to in order to even start picking up things from context ... and learning is drastically more successful at 95%+ of the content already known when learning from context.

Many success stories from AJATT are people who "didn't learn anything from classes" and then did AJATT... which means they actually -had- been exposed to basic grammar first. A lot of people also read Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese while doing AJATT... which again, is explicitly studying grammar.

If you really want to use a non-traditional immersive learning method, I would recommend looking up L-R (listening-reading) methods.

Mostly, however, I think you should just start with a textbook (ideally one with accompanying audio ; Genki is a popular choice.) I've certainly borrowed a few ideas from 'alternative' learning methods to improve my reading and listening comprehension, but I think these alternatives are best applied -after- getting down the basics.

There is certainly a lot that you will never learn without a ton of exposure to real use of the language, but there are also many things that are easy to understand when explained to you but very difficult to intuit from any kind of pure exposure-based learning plan. Which is why textbooks exist and are the most effective way for most people to start learning a language.

I'm just nitpicking over the difference between floating in a sea of Japanese and being immersed in Japanese. They are still interacting and carrying on their daily lives in English or whatever language they already use. When one is immersed not even one's head is sticking out; that's not the case for them and is a gross misappropriation of the use of the term "immersion method", in which people are not only surrounded on all fronts by the target language but are also forced to function in the target language to accomplish any and all daily tasks requiring communication.

Yeah, well I live in Oklahoma so real immersion isn't exactly practical. I know there's a lot more to AJATT, I used the example of where he says to start. Kanji and listening (anime in my case which is practically limitless but I need to start downloading music). I'm not even really crazy about anime. I'm using it only to listen to the language, and listen for the words I've learned/read subtitles to see if there are variations in the translation to give me a fuller grasp of the word and how to use it properly in a sentence. Even though AJATT says "no subtitles!" Maybe eventually but I can't see how that would help me at this point.

I think I will stick with Pimsleur and do a combination of much listening (which I would have done anyway, and I wouldn't have called it immersion) while branching out with different books and sources like mdchachi and SomeCallMeChris suggested. That's the direction I was leaning towards, thank you for the advice so I wouldn't be questioning myself every step of the way.

I also bought a Japanese 3DS for the literal hands-on learning experience. Again, I'm not real crazy about playing children's games (never played a DS) but I'll immerse myself as much as practical, even if it means only being knee deep by most's definition, and I think enjoying myself and having fun with it is important for learning. There's a TED Talk on that subject. But if I tried to play something right this moment I wouldn't make it past the menu. It will be some time before I make the OS swap. But yes, I'm aware of needing more Japanese in my life than just that from cartoons

If you look at kitsunekko.net, you can find subtitles -in- Japanese, which I found extremely helpful for listening comprehension when watching anime.

Before even worrying about that, I would use Erin's Challenge to help with listening,
Erin's Challenge! I can speak Japanese. | The Japan Foundation

There's also some vocabulary building exercises and grammar instruction, but to me, I mostly found it useful as a listening comprehension supplement to my textbook learning ; on the other hand, I found it well after completing my textbooks, it may offer more to someone earlier in their learning.

Personally I found that watching Japanese programs (whether that was Anime, dramas, or movies) simply didn't do any good if I had English subtitles on. It's just not the same thing at all. You might pick out some words, but picking out words that the English has cued you to listen for is hardly the same thing as understanding a sentence in a foreign language.

Most DVDs and most shows on crunchyroll.com, you can turn subtitles off. I've heard other sites are starting to do that too, but the last time I used funimation or netflix, you were stuck with the subtitles (which some people worked around by placing a small windowed app over the subtitle area... or even a piece of electrical tape on their screen).

It's not cheap but you could also consider Japan TV. They have a wide variety of programming from news, to dramas to children's shows. You could DVR the shows that you want to watch. If you kept it on all the time certainly some things would sink in. Especially phrases that come up all the time like 晴れ時々曇り(はれときどきくもり).

I like that idea mdchachi, but I'll probably just buy a lot of DVDs (I've got about five right now...Japanese that is lol) because I don't currently have satellite or any sort of DVR program, I'm using Netflix, which actually has a pretty large anime selection, and it seems like Japanese audio is always offered. But never Japanese sub. You can turn the subtitles off on Netflix though. And with DVDs, you usually have full range of English/Japanese both audio/sub. Plus I'm a movie buff anyway. That's what I'm going to school for. I don't mind watching movies repeatedly. I study them, and now I can study Japanese while scrutinizing camera work/lighting/editing, etc. Win-win!

I've found that anime hinders my learning in certain areas. It's helped me a lot in listening but it's hindered my speaking. I say things that wouldn't normally be said because I've been watching too much anime and they have their own style.

I'll also advise against trying to learn Japanese based on English subtitles - quite often translators take liberties to get to a more natural-sounding result at the cost of accuracy. An example off the top of my head: anime character says "mushi ka" which means "[Oh, so you're just going to] ignore [me]?" - but the subtitle simply says "Seriously?". And just like that, you would've learned something wrong.

Ideally have (accurate, first party) Japanese subtitles - a nice example is the news. If those are not available, watch without any subtitles and use a dictionary for words whose pronunciation you can pick up but whose meaning you don't know. And of course, read a lot - building vocabulary is less frustrating if you don't have to constantly pause a video.

If you use a vpn and use Netflix Japan you can turn on subtitles for most movies and shows. The subtitles might be better since they're direct subtitles of the spoken Japanese.

With Netflix, there's a button next to the play button which allows me to go back 10 seconds, which helps a lot.

I'm trying to watch Sushi and Beyond since it seems easiest to understand of all the shows I've watched. The visuals tend to match the words really well since it's a show about an American family wandering around Japan eating different foods. Different types of real world interactions occur between people of various ages and relationships, and some voiceover narration of food and places which makes it really easy to understand.