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Revising over giving and receiving.

Kirakira1232

素敵な冒険始まる！
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Konbanwa minna~! Kono PC wa nihongo wo kakanai kedo...de wa romaji wo kaite kureru. Sumimasen deshita~! Shuumatsu made ni watashi no Laptop wo kaeshite shimatta (Kaechatta...?)

I'm sorry this PC still cant write Japanese characters...so could you please in write in romaji ; ;. My laptop should be returned by the end of the week.

I'm revising over ageru, kureru and morau before the start of my Japanese class tomorrow and I just wanted some points clarified.

ageru

In this sense the giver is marked by "wa" and the receiver is marked by "ni"

Watashi wa anata ni hana wo ageru.
I gave you a flower

haha wa chichi ni RANCHI wo ageru
Mum gave dad his lunch.

Kureru

In this sense the receiver is automatically assumed to be the subject. The connotation is that the person previously requested for the item.

Otousan ni okane wo kashite kureru.
Dad leant me the money (that I previously requested for).

Sensei ni kanji wo oshiete kureru
Sensei taught me kanji.

Morau

this is where it becomes a little hazy...Morau essentially "to receive something without asking" the idea is that you hinted or wished for something that was granted by the giver. It gives a sense of gratitude.

haha wa watashi ni RANCHI wo tsukutte moraimashita
My mother made my lunch (with the connotation that she did this without me asking but I was grateful) Without the moraimashita the sentence sounds a little cold?

But there is also a something you have to beware of with morau...

Watashi wa tomodachi ni kanji wo oshiete moraimashita.

I taught my friend kanji. (Look how kind I am!)

In this sense it sounds the person thinks he is quite above the receiver and it sounds kind of rude.

I'm a little unsure about using kureru and morau but ageru I think I'm OK with.

Because ageru, morau and kureru are verbs...can they be used with forms such as ~te hoshi. Tatoeba..."agete hoshi"...or "I want you to give" or something like that?

Charity ni okane wo agete hoshi
I want you to give to charity.

Or would agetai be suitable?

Tasukete kurete arigatou gozaimashita~! (I think I used it correctly lol)
Thanks for teaching me
 
OK, first of all, in the examples for AGERU and KURERU, your English translation was in past tense while the Japanese examples were in present tense.

Otousan ga (watashi ni) okane wo kashite kureru.
Sensei ga (watashi ni) kanji wo oshiete kureru.

The particle here is GA instead of NI. What comes before NI is the direction of the action performed by the subject (in these particular examples).

It is true that Kureru has the connotation "without asking" (I think you have Kureru and Morau mixed up in that reagrd). However, they are interchangeable in many instances. A better way to distinguish one from the other is this : KURERU is an action by the giver while MORAU is an action by the receiver.

Shiranai ojisan ga candy wo kureta.
A stranger (a middle aged male stranger) gave me candy.

Shiranai ojisan ni candy wo moratta.
I received candy from a stranger.
In above 2 examples, you probably had not ask for candy.


Okaasan ni sentaku wo shite moratta.
I had my mother do the laundry for me.

Okaasan ga sentaku wo shite kureta.
My mother did the laundry for me.

In the first example, you had probably asked her to do it. In the second one, she just did it for you without being asked because she knew it was her duty as a mother and as a woman ( I'm joking!!!).

Again, MORAU is used when you are the receiver, so.....

"Watashi wa tomodachi ni kanji wo oshiete moraimashita.", you should be able to figure out.
 
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Ah~! naruhodo...

so

Watashi wa tomodachi ni kanji wo oshiete moraimashita
I was taught kanji from my friend.

Watashi wa okaasan ni RANCHI wo tsukutte moraimashita
I had mum make my lunch for me

Tomodachi ga (watashi ni) CD wo kashite kureta
My friend loaned me a CD

Tomodachi ni (watashi ga) CD wo kashite moraimashita
I was loaned a CD from my friend.

Do I have it sort of in the ball park now? Or am I still mixed up on kureru and morau? The way I understand it is that with kureru, the giver is the subject and so the receiver is marked by "ni". With morau the receiver is the subject and so the giver is marked by "ni".

Kureru has the connotation that the "thing" being given wasnt asked for but it was done anyway (either by obligation, kindness etc.). While Morau has you asking previously for the "thing' to be given to you.

I hope that wasnt confusing to you...but it seems clear to me.

Ashikaga san! Arigatou gozaimashita~!
 
You've got it! Sorry if my response was a bit confusing. It is just that explaining grammar is not my forte...
 
Oh no on the contrary it cleared up something that I had been a bit unsure of last semester~! So thank you Ashikaga...SENSEI~! XD
 
Kirakira1232 said:
My friend loaned me a CD
Tomodachi ni (watashi ga) CD wo kashite moraimashita
I was loaned a CD from my friend.
Click to expand...
I got a friend to loan me a CD. OR
I received a CD from my friend.

With morau the receiver is the subject and so the giver is marked by "ni".
Click to expand...
Or sometimes "kara." And only "kara" when the giver is a non-person (company, country, etc).

While Morau has you asking previously for the "thing' to be given to you.
Click to expand...
Morau isn't necessarily at all something the giver was influenced to do in any way. It simply implies receiving an object or favor and that the action of giving is perceived from the receiving end....What I got from them rather than what they did for me (kureru). It may be easier to remember this way : A -te morau sentence centers on the receiver. A -te kureru sentence centers on the giver as the main actor/protangonist.

Does that make it come together a little better for you ?
 

Ah~! Very good point on kara. That wasnt mentioned at all...

Yes that makes it clearer now...Kureru is more centered on the action of the giver whereas morau centres more on the recipient actually "receiving" from someone....if that makes ANY sense at all...

Something like

Tomodachi ni kore no SETAA wo kate moraimasu
I got my friend to buy this sweater for me

Tomodachi ga kore no SETAA wo kate kureta
My friend bought this sweater for me.

In the first sentence the recipient is clearly the subject of the action and it implies the friend did it as a favour (not necessarily by request). Whereas the second sentence focuses more on the friend actually giving the sweater (so it seems more like a present).

Do I have it straight?
 
Yes that makes it clearer now...Kureru is more centered on the action of the giver whereas morau centres more on the recipient actually "receiving" from someone....if that makes ANY sense at all...
Click to expand...
Right ! You can see now why there isn't a polite form of morau which would elevate the status of the receiver over the giver. Itadaku = humble equivalent.


I will get my friend to buy this sweater for me.
I will get my friend to buy this sweater instead of me. (Tomodachi ni kaimono shite moraimasu).

OR I will receive this sweater from my friend. (Future tense used in limited circumstances....And I don't mean steal from your friend, either..).
 
Kirakira1232 said:
Tomodachi ni kore no SETAA wo kate moraimasu
Click to expand...
Another interpretation besides Elizabeth's.

Tomodachi ni kono SE-TA- wo katte moraimasu.
I will get my friend to buy my sweater.
(My friend will buy this/my sweater from me.)


As for "kureru", the receiver should be the speaker or the person/thing on the speaker's side.

彼は妹に花を買ってくれた。
Kare wa imouto ni hana wo katte kureta.

彼は妹に花を買ってあげた。
Kare wa imouto ni hana wo katte ageta.


The former "imouto" should be MY sister. On the other hand, the latter one would be his (or the third person's) sister.


One more example

その日お父さんはお母さんに花を買ってくれたの？
Sono hi otousan wa okaasan ni hana wo katte kureta no?
Did dad buy a flower for mum on that day?

Probably the speaker would be asking his/her mother this question.


その日お父さんはお母さんに花を買ってあげたの？
Sono hi otousan wa okaasan ni hana wo katte ageta no?

As for this sentence, the speaker would be asking his/her father.
 
Kirakira1232 said:
ageru

In this sense the giver is marked by "wa" and the receiver is marked by "ni"


haha wa chichi ni RANCHI wo ageru
Mum gave dad his lunch.
Click to expand...
Okaasan wa otousan ni hirugohan (I try to avoid gairaigo...) wo ageta.

Okaasan wa otousan ni hirugohan wo kureta.


You can see that the content of these is identifical, right ? The difference is in the first one the speaker is "siding with" okaasan and in the second expresses more of an identification for otousan....At least that is my basic understanding/impression.

I'm not sure it should be used for receiving among family or "ingroup" members though....



This is getting complicated for my lunch hour (starting to lose some appetite.... ) but these may be softer and more natural than "agete hoshii" alone.

Charity ni okane wo (agete) hoshii/moraitai to omou/omoimasu.

Charity ni okane wo agetara/kuretara ii noni(naa) to omou/omoimasu.


(Anata ni) charity ni okane wo (agete) hoshiin/moraitain desu. This sounds too direct to me...


Agetai means the speaker wants to give.
 
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Ah hah~! So in "Kare wa imouto ni hana wo katte kureta" he is specifically talking about someone giving towards people to him or in his family whereas in "Kare wa imouto ni hana wo katte ageta" the "ageta" signifies the recipient is someone else's sister (outside his "In group")

The nuance in the second two sentences are perhaps not as obvious to me right now...I will wager a guess. Kureru and Ageru both mean "to give", Because the speaker is speaking to the "receiver" he/she uses "kureru" and when he is talking to the "giver" he/she uses "ageru". I know that seems rather simplistic ><


I can sort of understand that now...after reading totoribe's post and Ashikaga-san's PM to me. I think I need some more practice with ageru/kureru before I become more confident in it.


Ah! Gomen ne elizabeth-san! I didnt mean for you to lose your appetite lol. The first sentence is more direct something like "I think you should donate money to charity." Whereas the second sentence is more like "I think it would be good to give money to charity." The last sentence is something like "I want you to give money to charity" so it sounds quite direct.

I'm so sorry to trouble you guys (sumimasen deshita~!). They rushed this particular section last semester and I really wish they hadnt lol ><

Thank you so very much for all your help. Greatly appreciated!
 
Ah, no, no, sorry for my ambiguousness. "Te-form + kureru" means "the subject does something for me/the speaker."

彼は花を買ってくれた。
Kare wa hana wo katte kureta. ("Kare" is NOT the speaker.)
He bought me a flower./He bought a flower for me.

彼は妹に花を買ってくれた。
Kare wa imouto ni hana wo katte kureta.
He bought a flower for MY(THE SPEAKER'S) sister.

彼は妹に花を買ってあげた。
Kare wa imouto ni hana wo katte ageta.
He bought a flower for HIS(or the third person's) sister.
(This "imouto" is considered not on the speaker's side.)


The speaker asks on the listener's position in the last two sentences in my previous post.

Sono hi otousan wa okaasan ni hana wo katte kureta no?
"katte kureta"; because the speaker asks on the listner(mother)'s position, the reciver

Sono hi otousan wa okaasan ni hana wo katte ageta no?
"katte ageta"; because the speaker asks on the listener(father)'s position, the giver


So the former one can be also said as

その日お母さんはお父さんに花を買ってもらったの？
Sono hi okaasan wa otousan ni hana wo katte moratta no?
Because the listner(mother)'s position is the reciver.
 


One more example
その日お父さんはお母さんに花を買ってくれたの？
Sono hi otousan wa okaasan ni hana wo katte kureta no?
Did dad buy a flower for mum on that day?
Probably the speaker would be asking his/her mother this question.[/quote]
Although I've often seen the choice of verb as "kureru" when the listener is the one doing the action or giving the favor.
Asking your father : "Have you such-and-such to mother XXX Kuremashitaka?"

Again, it must be rooted in the general rule of "kureru" going in the direction outgroup-->ingroup as the receiver of a person identified with the speaker. Although why that is supposed to be mother over father in the example is still not entirely understood.
 

Ahh I thought thats what I said? Maybe I was the one being too ambigious ^^;; I'm sorry I had meant to say that I understood that kureru refers the giving being done towards a person within the speaker's "In group" and that ageru refers to giving to a person outside the speaker's group. But this still made things quite clear


If I understood this correctly...Kureru means "to give" but it places more emphasis on the person receiving the action or thing. Ageru also means to give but places more emphasis on the person giving the action or thing.

So the speaker in the first sentence is using kureru/morau because he/she is speaking on the position of the receiver and he/she is using ageru in the second sentence because he/she is speaking in the position of the person giving the action.


Hmm thats what puzzled me a little bit when I saw that too because kureru and ageru both mean to give, but I guess it makes sense in terms of "the giver" and "the receiver" since both the mother and the father you would assume to be both within the speakers "In group".
 
As I understand it, ageru cannot be used when the listener is the giver, unless he/she happens to be a close friend or family member of the speaker. Conversely, I didn't think that "kureru" could ever be used when the listener was the receiver...

But at least "ageru" implies the parties involved are of approximately the same social standing, except when you're doing something for other people's kids or your pets.... Terms like ingroup and outgroup are too obscure, only lead to misunderstandings and I'm going to stop them right now.
 
Perfect!

Elizabeth said:
And if the speaker is performing this action, it SHOULD be 買ってやった ですね。
Click to expand...
"Yatta" sounds more "rough" than "ageta".

私は妹に花を買ってあげた。
Watashi wa imouto ni hana wo katte ageta.

俺は妹に花を買ってやった。
Ore wa imouto ni hana wo katte yatta.

Elizabeth said:
Although I've often seen the choice of verb as "kureru" when the listener is the one doing the action or giving the favor.
Asking your father : "Have you such-and-such to mother XXX Kuremashitaka?"
Click to expand...
When asking for the listener to do something for me(the speaker), right, "kureru" would be used.

私に花を買ってくれませんか？
Watashi ni hana wo katte kuremasenka?
Could you buy a flower for me?

But if you ask your father like "have you such-and-such to mother XXX Kuremashitaka?", this "kuremashitaka?" connotes that the mother(the receiver) is in my(the speaker's) side, and the father(the giver) is out of my side. (like the "divorce" situation...)
the listener was the receiver...[/QUOTE]
the third person (not the speaker) is the giver
the listener is the receiver
the listener is in the speaker's side

In this case, "kureru" can be used like my examples.

その日お父さんはお母さんに花を買ってくれたの？
Sono hi otousan wa okaasan ni hana wo katte kureta no?

(ask to my sister) 彼は花を買ってくれたの？
Kare wa hana wo katte kureta no?
Did he buy the flower for you?

Generally, yes. That's just the reason I selected the terms "imouto/otousan/okaasan" in my examples.

先生の肩揉んであげる。
Sensei no kata monde ageru.
I'll massage your shoulders, sensei.

お兄ちゃんに車を買ってあげた。
Oniichan ni kuruma wo katte ageta.
I bought the car for my brother. (She might be 宮里藍.

These sentences shows the speaker's affection for the receiver/listener.
 
Thank you ! I understand well, now. And I didn't mean to put you to so much work, toritoribe-san, honestly. :sorry:

The rule about "kureru" not being used when the listener was the receiver was from a stupid, oldish textbook I remembered very late in the discussion. I must try forgetting about it again.

So...in short, when giving takes place between two parties not involving the self, asking the speaker if they have "XXX kuremashitaka?" (Suzukisan ni purezento wo kuremashitaka?) works well to define that person as the derelict party, on the other side of the fence, in the "outgroup" camp (if I dare say...).

But asking the speaker if they have "agemashitaka" (Suzukisan ni purezento wo agemashitaka?) is not necessarily limited to a relatively close friend or family...For example a generic question asking classmates, teachers, colleagues その日に何かもらいましたか？あげましたか？

Or, this situation....女性から男性にチョコをあげるっていう習慣に....皆さん、チョコあげましたか? etc.
 
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I heard yatte or yarimasu is something that you would use towards things that are much much lower standing than you are or inanimate objects

eg.

Kyou hana ga mizu wo yatta
I watered my flowers today.

Kinou Inu ga DOGU FUUDO wo yarimashita
I fed my dog yesterday.

My teacher however remarked that she is seeing more and more Japanese using ageru when "giving" things to pets or inanimate objects. Maybe its a sign of affection?

Thank you everyone for your awesome explanations
 
No, yaru was formerly used perfectly appropriately for younger siblings. Now considered "ranbou" except perhaps by (some) men or post-war women, under the age of 60-70, is that about right?. And as a replacement ageru has feminized or softened the implication of giving just as radically in the opposite direction IMO. You can even find "shokubutsu ni ageru."

I'm not a native speaker but it is a cultural ideal, after all, that Japanese parents tend to spoil their kids already...And even foreign visitors are forced to live with the result. lol


Kyou hana ga mizu wo yatta
I watered my flowers today.
Click to expand...
Kyou, hana ni mizu wo yatta.

Kinou Inu ga DOGU FUUDO wo yarimashita
Click to expand...

I fed my dog yesterday.
Kinou, inu ni esa wo yatta /ageta (not uncommonly).
 
Right. "Ageru/Morau" focuses simply on "the giver/receiver", but "kureru" rather focuses on "the relationship to the speaker."

Kirakira1232 said:
My teacher however remarked that she is seeing more and more Japanese using ageru when "giving" things to pets or inanimate objects. Maybe its a sign of affection?
Click to expand...
The opinion is divided even among native speakers.

Need a word or phrase translated?

I, myself, mainichi neko ni esa wo ageteru.
 
Yeah because "ageru" kind of signifies you and your pet are at the same level I guess huh so its much more affectionate to say ageru

They still insisted we use yaru when "giving" things to our dogs or plants for the tests/exams. In my opinion it should be OK to use both when referring to pets/plants if your quite affectionate about them.
 
It isn't only a problem of affection. You can find ageru used for wild animals, zoo animals, other people's pets, down to even birds and goldfish lol. And not unusually plant feed or water.


Zannennagara, tada kono goro wa, amari [yaru] wo tsukawanai (toku ni josei no baai) desuyone...
 
ASHIKAGA said:
You've got it! Sorry if my response was a bit confusing. It is just that explaining grammar is not my forte...
Click to expand...

Your explanation was great! Even for me, just started studying japanese, it was understandable
 
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