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~reru and ~rareru

Rei Yahya

ぺらぺらになりたい生徒
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I have heard 3 explanations of the use of ~reru and rareru, all of them seeming to be different. If someone here could finally clear up the meaning and use of this conjugation, I would be VERY grateful! As for the 3 explanations I've heard, here they are with examples of what they would mean.

1. A potential form.
田中くんは刺身が食べられませんって。Tanaka says he can't eat raw fish.
What confuses me here is that I'm familiar with 'tabereru' as the potential for taberu, so saying taberareru is a potential too is confusing.

2. A passive form.
お父さんは新聞を読まれました。Dad was reading the newspaper.

3. A polite form.
一昨日、田中村長は村で来られましたんだよ。It is that Mayor Tanaka came to the village the day before yesterday.
I read that this form is used when you're paying certain respect to the one you're talking about.
 
------------------Potential ------------- Passive/Respectful
Godan verbs: base 4 stem + ru base 1 stem + reru
Ichidan verbs: base 2 stem + rareru base 2 stem + rareru (the plain passive and potential are the same for ichidan verbs)

Where base 1 -> ika, base 2 -> iki, base 3 -> iku, base 4 -> ike, base 5 -> ikou (godan) --- base 1 -> tabe, base 2 -> tabe, base 3 -> taberu, base 4 -> tabere, base 5 -> tabeyou (ichidan).

I have not heard of tabereru.

Sorry, formatting sucks, I was trying to make a table.

And I'm not sure that "Dad was reading the newspaper." is a passive construction, atleast in English it is not. The passive version would be "The newspaper was being read (by Dad)."
 
So tabereru doesn't exist? In other cases with ichidans, then, the following don't exist either: Hairu -> Haireru, Kagiru -> Kagireru, etc.?

I'll use oyogu for my godan verb and shaberu for my ichidan verb and make a chart based on your charts, please confirm if I've got this down. Red for potential, blue for passive/respectful. (and thank you, by the way)

Oyogu -> Oyogeru, Oyogareru
Shaberu -> Shaberareru, Shaberareru

I obviously need to change my thinking, because I was certain that the potential form for a verb like taberu would be base 4 + ru, 'tabereru', but I may have been applying a rule for godan verbs to ichidan verbs unnecessarily.

Could I have been confusing the three (potential, passive, respectful) because of my false impression on an ichidan's potential form?
 
All your examples, 入る[hairu], 限る[kagiru], しゃべる[shaberu], are GODAN verbs. All "iru/eru" ending verbs are NOT ALWAYS ichidan verbs. For instance, "kiru" as "to wear" is an ichidan verb, whereas "kiru" as "to cut" is a godan verb.

着る[kiru] "to wear" (ichidan) --> kinai, kimasu, kirareru(potential/passive/honorific)
切る[kiru] "to cut" (godan) --> kiranai, kirimasu, kireru(potential), kirareru(passive/honorific)

As for "tabereru", that is so-called "ra-nuki kotoba", a conjugation which is widely used colloquially but unaccepted officially.


The example 2 お父さんは新聞を読まれました is usually interpreted as an honorific. If it's the passive, that's a indirect passive/passive of adversity. An article that is not good for dad is on the newspaper, and someone read it.

"The newspaper was read (by Dad)." is お父さんに新聞を読まれました. This is also an indirect passive. The newspaper is MY newspaper or the newspaper that has an article not good for ME was read by Dad.


Are there any typos in #3 一昨日、田中村長は村で来られましたんだよ?
 

AHH. My mistake on the 'ichidan'. I should have been well aware that shiru, hairu, shaberu, kiru, iru, hashiru, kagiru, and one more that isn't coming to mind have the irregular ~te and ~ta forms and are thus godans.

I'm not sure I understand all the details on the #2 sentence. There's definitely a critical foundation here that I must be missing, because normally I can piece things together with all your help and examples, but here I just see a bunch of scattered pieces. :?

If there are any, it's probably in 'koraremashita n da'. This nuance thing is difficult.
 
OK, "indirect passive" might be a bit advanced.

potential
田中さんは寿司が食べられる。
Mr/Mrs Tanaka can eat sushi.

passive
シマウマがライオンに食べられた。
A zebra was eaten by a lion.

honorific
先生が寿司を食べられた。
The teacher ate sushi.

As you can see above, these three forms are completely the same in ichidan verbs. So, you need to pay attention to the particles(が, を, に) and of course the context to interpret what form it is.


Village Mayor Tanaka came to the village the day before yesterday.
一昨日、田中村長は村まで/に来られましたよ。
一昨日、田中村長は村まで/に来られたんですよ。

If you actually saw the form 来られましたんだよ for instance in "Doubutsu no Mori", it's a fake dialect and sounds very rural.
 
Thank you very much, it's beginning to make more sense. Something I will keep in mind is the use of 'ni' to mean 'by' here - the newspaper read -by- dad or the zebra eaten -by- the lion. (Also, could passive for 'taberu' also be 'tabete ita/imashita'?)

Also, I've seen 'made' in reference to direction a lot recently, for instance in the sentence 'we'll push it to the top of the hill', the direction particle was made instead of ni or e. Is there a trick to knowing when to use made?

Koraremashita yo and koraremashita n desu yo both work, is 'nda' then basically off-limits or false? 全部一助をどうもありがとう。
 
Rei Yahya said:
Also, could passive for 'taberu' also be 'tabete ita/imashita'?
Click to expand...
No, 食べていた/いました is the past progressive "was/were eating".

Rei Yahya said:
Also, I've seen 'made' in reference to direction a lot recently, for instance in the sentence 'we'll push it to the top of the hill', the direction particle was made instead of ni or e. Is there a trick to knowing when to use made?
Click to expand...
Unlike に/へ, まで indicates boundary/arrival point rather than direction. It sometimes also has a nuance of "even".

Rei Yahya said:
Koraremashita yo and koraremashita n desu yo both work, is 'nda' then basically off-limits or false?
Click to expand...
No. 来られましたよ/来られたんですよ is correct, as I wrote, but neither 来られましたんですよ nor 来られましたんだよ are grammatically incorrect. The explanatory ん can't be attached to the polite form ます/ました.
 
Toritoribe said:
No, 食べていた/いました is the past progressive "was/were eating".
Click to expand...
Ahh, so passive would be 'was read' whereas past progressive would be 'was reading'? I have a very limited knowledge of the terms that are connected to these verb forms, so forgive my slowness in the area.


Unlike に/へ, まで indicates boundary/arrival point rather than direction. It sometimes also has a nuance of "even".
Click to expand...
That makes sense! Thank you very much!


This makes sense, so I only have to remember that the explanatory ん must not go after masu/mashita?
 
Another key point is the direction of the respect and politeness.

彼が来たんだ/来たよ(non-polite both for the addressee = the person you are talking to, and the doer = the person who came)
A friend(= He) came, and the speaker is talking to another friend about it.

彼が来たんです/来ましたよ(polite for the addressee, non-polite for the doer)
A friend came, and the speaker is talking to a superior about it.

村長が来られたんだ/来られたよ(non-polite for the addressee, respect for the doer)
Mayer came, and the speaker is talking to a friend about it.

村長が来られたんです/来られましたよ(polite for the addressee, respect for the doer)
Mayer came, and the speaker is talking to a superior about it.
 
That explanation was VERY helpful. Thank you so much!
 
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