Phrases that are joined without using ~te

The7thSamurai · 1 Jul 2006

I've been doing a bit of reading in Japanese and have noticed that a lot of sentences have two separate phrases but aren't joined in the ~te form.

For example, I'm reading this book about Napolean and it's describing the place where he was born (where there's apparently a hot wind that makes people aggressive):

ナポレオンは、地中海のコルシカ島に生まれ、この熱風にふかれてそだったのです。

So regarding this sentence, my questions are:
1) why do they use 生まれ and not the ~te form? Is it something to do with the passive ふかれ? These non-te phrases within sentences confuse me;
2) what is this 'tesodatta' (and I double checked, it's not 'soudatta'). A Google search of てそだった brings up only 10 results!

Thanks in advance!

undrentide · 1 Jul 2006

Bucko said:
ナポレオンは、地中海のコルシカ島に生まれ、この熱風にふかれてそだったのです。
So regarding this sentence, my questions are:
1) why do they use 生まれ and not the ~te form? Is it something to do with the passive ふかれ? These non-te phrases within sentences confuse me;
2) what is this 'tesodatta' (and I double checked, it's not 'soudatta'). A Google search of てそだった brings up only 10 results!
Thanks in advance!

Maybe it is easier to understand if I write the last part in kanji.

ナポレオンは、地中海のコルシカ島に生まれ、この熱風に吹かれて育ったのです。

Now you can see it is not てそだった but ふかれてそだった.

So there are three verbs for the subject ナポレオン.
生まれ（た）
吹かれ（た）
育った

It is possible to say
生まれて、吹かれて、育った
however, in a normal sentence repetition of ～て sounds a bit redundant.
So you use ～て only with the second last verb when you list up more than three verbs.

This is perhaps just my personal feeling, but when I come across ～て, then the flow of my thought make a little stop there. If I want to emphasize each verb, I'd use ～て with each verb. If I want it to flow lightly and smoothly, I omit ～て except the second last.

e.g.
ピクニックではみんなよく笑い、よく食べ、たくさん歌い、たくさんビールを飲んですごした。
家に帰るとまず手を洗って、うがいをして、服を着替えて、それから夕食をとった。

The7thSamurai · 1 Jul 2006

in a normal sentence repetition of ～て sounds a bit redundant.
So you use ～て only with the second last verb when you list up more than three verbs.

Probably the most useful thing I've learnt today! Thanks!

The7thSamurai · 1 Jul 2006

Undertide, does that mean the following sentence makes sense:

昨日梅田へ行き、新しい本を買い、らめんを食べ、映画を見て帰った。?

The7thSamurai · 1 Jul 2006

Sorry, one more question. How would you best translate that Napoleon sentence? I'm now reading it as something like:

"Napoleon was born on the Mediterranean's Island of Corsica, was blown upon by this wind, and grew up there."

But that sounds kind of weird in English. Are they trying to say something more along the lines of "Napoleon was born and grew up on the Mediterranean's Island of Corsica, and was blown upon by this wind." Still sounds weird.

undrentide · 1 Jul 2006

Bucko said:
Undertide, does that mean the following sentence makes sense:
昨日梅田へ行き、新しい本を買い、らめんを食べ、映画を見て帰った。?

I think it makes sence and grammatically correct, yet I would use ～て for this.
Why? (... racking my brain)

...!!

I think that we use ～て when listing up the events in chronological order.
Without ～て, all the events happen(ed) at the same time.

(1) ピクニックではみんなよく笑い、よく食べ、たくさん歌い、たくさんビールを飲んですごした。
(2) 家に帰るとまず手を洗って、うがいをして、服を着替えて、それから夕食をとった。

In (1), everyone did not first laugh, then eat, then sing and then drink beer.
In (2), I first washed my hands, then gurgled, then changed, and then had dinner.

In your sentence 昨日梅田へ行き、新しい本を買い、らめんを食べ、映画を見て帰った。
these things did not happen at a time, but one was followed another.
That's the reason I feel like to add ～て.

undrentide · 1 Jul 2006

But wait!

ナポレオンは、地中海のコルシカ島に生まれ、この熱風に吹かれて育ったのです。

The above explanation of mine does not fit here!
(Anyone? Help!)

On second thought...

この熱風に吹かれて育った
Maybe this て is not the same as ～て used for listing up.
It is rather "while", similar to ～ながら.

Napoleon was born on the Mediterranean Island of Corsica, and grew up, beling blown by this hot wind.
(or "grew up in this hot wind"?)

Sorry for being ever so changing... it proved that my post is not very logical.

Damicci · 1 Jul 2006

In english I am guessing it is a metaphor for something. translation doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either.

"Grew up blowing to/inthis hot wind"
Maybe saying he grew up very fast.

Glenn · 1 Jul 2006

Yeah, I'd say that 〜て is the adverbial 〜て. You know, like "he grew up being blown on by the hot wind" or something like that. Although, that is a rather strange English sentence.

I think that you're right, undrentide, that it isn't the same 〜て used when listing things.

苦労して作文を書き上げた。

That works, right? In that case 苦労して would modify the main verb, as it describes how I finished writing the thesis. Of course, if the sentence is wrong, then we'll need another example.

nice gaijin · 1 Jul 2006

I'm surprised no one has said this yet;

using the stem form of verbs to link clauses in a sentence is a written structure, it serves the same purpose as the ～て form in this respect. You will probably see it many more time in your book.

Damicci · 1 Jul 2006

nice gaijin said:
I'm surprised no one has said this yet;

using the stem form of verbs to link clauses in a sentence is a written structure, it serves the same purpose as the ～て form in this respect. You will probably see it many more time in your book.

I thought the te form was needed to link clauses.

KrazyKat · 1 Jul 2006

Damicci said:
I thought the te form was needed to link clauses.

But -masu stem can perform the same function in written language. In spoken language -te will almost always be used.

nice gaijin · 1 Jul 2006

there are many differences between formal writing structures and spoken ones. Until a fairly advanced level, most classes and learning programs concentrate solely on the spoken language and conversational Japanese in writing, and pretty much ignore rules of formal literature.

Elizabeth · 1 Jul 2006

KrazyKat said:
But -masu stem can perform the same function in written language. In spoken language -te will almost always be used.

I actually hear the stem form a lot in spoken language -- from friends, in emails, of course in formal dialogues such as news or some television dramas -- as undrentide explained to create a better flow and also imply less causality or order of events than 'te. It is definately less common in casual speech if that is what is meant by spoken language. Sorry I'm working and can't demonstrate with an example !

Damicci · 1 Jul 2006

I pretty much understand. thanks. mata ganbarimasu!

Elizabeth · 1 Jul 2006

Glenn said:
Yeah, I'd say that ～て is the adverbial ～て. You know, like "he grew up being blown on by the hot wind" or something like that. Although, that is a rather strange English sentence.

I think that you're right, undrentide, that it isn't the same ～て used when listing things.

苦労して作文を書き上げた。

That works, right? In that case 苦労して would modify the main verb, as it describes how I finished writing the thesis. Of course, if the sentence is wrong, then we'll need another example.

I had a hard time finishing up my thesis, or I finished it up with great difficulty, more rational at least on English terms than the Napolean example.

And then when I was finally done we can say

私はかろうじて試験に通った(合格しました)。 (I barely passed the exam)

Elizabeth · 1 Jul 2006

undrentide said:
I think it makes sense and grammatically correct, yet I would use ～て for this.
Why? (... racking my brain)
...!!
I think that we use ～て when listing up the events in chronological order.
Without ～て, all the events happen(ed) at the same time.
(1) ピクニックではみんなよく笑い、よく食べ、たくさん歌い、たくさんビールを飲んですごした。
(2) 家に帰るとまず手を洗って、うがいをして、服を着替えて、それから夕食をとった。
In (1), everyone did not first laugh, then eat, then sing and then drink beer.
In (2), I first washed my hands, then gurgled, then changed, and then had dinner.
In your sentence 昨日梅田へ行き、新しい本を買い、らめんを食べ、映画を見て帰った。
these things did not happen at a time, but one was followed another.
That's the reason I feel like to add ～て.

最後に、誤解しないように、次の文をたとえにとってみよう。

同じ意味だけど、「後数時間で仕事が終わり、うちに変えます」ほど、
「後数時間で仕事が終って、うちに変えます」の方が真剣な
感じじゃないんじゃなのかな。

Phrases that are joined without using ~te

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Damicci

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Damicci

先輩

KrazyKat

先輩

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Elizabeth

先輩

Damicci

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

Elizabeth

先輩

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