Naturalness and 示唆

Glenn · 19 Jul 2007

I have this sentence that says 彼女は夫の示唆で詐欺を働いた and a translation of "her husband put her up to committing fraud." However, does 示唆 really have a connotation of causation? I mean, to me the sentence reads more like "she committed fraud on her husband's suggestion."

Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.

Mikawa Ossan · 19 Jul 2007

Glenn said:
I have this sentence that says 彼女は夫の示唆で詐欺を働いた and a translation of "her husband put her up to committing fraud." However, does 示唆 really have a connotation of causation? I mean, to me the sentence reads more like "she committed fraud on her husband's suggestion."

Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.

I have to disagree. I think there is a connotation of causation, or "urging". However it's so overt.

Glenn · 19 Jul 2007

You mean it's not so overt?

I see, so in this instance it's like "he hinted (wink wink) at her to commit fraud?" That's the impression I'm getting here.

undrentide · 19 Jul 2007

Though it depends on the context, in this particular case, what I feel from 示唆 is ほのめかす＋そそのかす.
According to 広辞苑, 示唆 means:

し‐さ【示唆】
(ジサとも) それとなく気づかせること。また、暗にそそのかすこと。「―に富む」「―を与える」「大臣の更迭を―する談話」

Mikawa Ossan · 19 Jul 2007

Yes, I agree. I think it's a kind of urging or push to do the deceit, but not anything very forceful (like blackmail, etc.)

Glenn · 19 Jul 2007

Ok, so it is like "he hinted (wink wink) at her to commit fraud," at least the way I was thinking of it. Thanks for the help, guys.

How about the other question? Is it natural?

Mikawa Ossan · 19 Jul 2007

I think that, mostly because of the "暗に" in undrentide's definition from 広辞苑 that the urging is done somehow indirectly. I am at a loss as to how to properly translate it, however... (My brain recently having been 69 years old and all...)

Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.

Seems fine to my non-native brain. I hope undrentide comes to help soon! Her word is more reliable on such matters than mine!

Glenn · 19 Jul 2007

I see. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if the nuance couldn't be expressed by a single word or phrase in English, but I think I have the concept down now.

I forgot your brain was 69, but it's better than, what was it, 72? Maybe if you keep taking the test it'll keep getting younger.

undrentide · 19 Jul 2007

Glenn said:
Also, I just want a check for naturalness on this one: ほら！校正ミスだ！この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！Seems like it might be on the strange side, so I wanted to be sure.

It sounds to me natural enough, too.
But I'm just wondering exactly in what situation the speaker says this...

ほら！校正ミスだ！
When I first read this part, I felt that perhaps the speaker had expected it - as if saying やっぱり or 思ったとおり（校正ミスがあるじゃないか！）

But then it is followed by
この校正係は居眠りでもしていたのか！
which (to me) suggests annoyance/anger of the speaker as well as a little surprise.
Then I thought
ほら！
should be something similar to おい！（見てみろ！）, not いわんこっちゃない。

May I ask you, Glenn san, what did you feel the unnaturalness about these sentences? Does it something to do with the above?

Glenn · 19 Jul 2007

Heh, I guess just a lack of confidence, but also after I typed it out I thought that it's a bit of a strange thing to say.

So, ほら！ is like "just like I thought/here it is!" then? I was thinking something like "hey, a proofreading error! What, was the proofreader sleeping or something?" (that is, just discovering it and not having been expecting it). I was shooting more for surprise than anything else, maybe with a little bit of annoyance. So おい！ would be a better word choice there?

undrentide · 19 Jul 2007

Glenn said:
Heh, I guess just a lack of confidence, but also after I typed it out I thought that it's a bit of a strange thing to say.

So, ほら！ is like "just like I thought/here it is!" then? I was thinking something like "hey, a proofreading error! What, was the proofreader sleeping or something?" (that is, just discovering it and not having been expecting it). I was shooting more for surprise than anything else, maybe with a little bit of annoyance. So おい！ would be a better word choice there?

I see, in that case, I think either ほら！or おい！ will do.
It also depends on the character of the person who is saying this.
(And maybe it is a question of style and taste rather than naturalness/correctness...)

Glenn · 19 Jul 2007

Ah, I see. Thanks for the help!

Elizabeth · 19 Jul 2007

Glenn said:
I have this sentence that says 彼女は夫の示唆で詐欺を働いた and a translation of "her husband put her up to committing fraud." However, does 示唆 really have a connotation of causation? I mean, to me the sentence reads more like "she committed fraud on her husband's suggestion."

How about 彼女は夫のすすめで詐欺を働いた for a take it or leave it, above board husbandly, uh, 'suggestion.'

Naturalness and 示唆

Glenn

一切皆苦

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Glenn

一切皆苦

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Glenn

一切皆苦

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Glenn

一切皆苦

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Glenn

一切皆苦

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

Glenn

一切皆苦

Elizabeth

先輩

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