Japanophilia

Were all familiar with western otaku's, japanophiles, mangamaniacs, and any other sub group of what has derogatorily been labelled "wapanese".

generally, i speak of a non-japanese individual who for various reasons, idolises japan, ussually concentrating on a certain aspect such as the anime, but ussually dedicating their praise to all aspects of japan along side their main obsession, as one idolises a pop-star or god.

this however, for the sake of argument not include someone who enjoys watching anime or reading manga, or studying on japan, basicly any behaviour which is considored within the norm.


What do the japanese think of a sub-sector of western society who seem to un-healthily idolise japan, and what do japanese considor otaku?.


i thought of this after my girlfriend said boys who play computer games are considored otaku's (she is japanese), and i informed her that in the west, most boys around my age have a computer and games to go with it, since playing computer games is just one way i pass free time.

it also came to my attention of reading a web based comic where two "otaku's" meet a main character who is japanese, and proceed to act in (an obviously) a extremely otaku fashion.

if we have resident otaku's, what appeals to you about this culture of japan-worship?....share your opinions and feelings as to why you find it so engaging.

as for everyone else as usual, feel free to share your cosndiored and reasonably written opinions and feelings here, i dunno why but i really want a discussion to get to the heart of what otaku is and why it is :S.


yes, i did have too much free time today...

nurizeko said:

Were all familiar with western otaku's, japanophiles, mangamaniacs, and any other sub group of what has derogatorily been labelled "wapanese".

generally, i speak of a non-japanese individual who for various reasons, idolises japan, ussually concentrating on a certain aspect such as the anime, but ussually dedicating their praise to all aspects of japan along side their main obsession, as one idolises a pop-star or god.

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Interesting idea.

this however, for the sake of argument not include someone who enjoys watching anime or reading manga, or studying on japan, basicly any behaviour which is considored within the norm.

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This I don't quite get. You're saying reading manga and watching anime is the norm? Hmmm...

What do the japanese think of a sub-sector of western society who seem to un-healthily idolise japan, and what do japanese considor otaku?.

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It seemed to me that a good deal of the Japanese I met weren't really impressed with the notion of Japanophiles. Thought they were odd. Many were especially amused when I would tell them that in the west many Japanophiles seemed to base their perceptions of Japan on Anime/Manga or other Pop Cultural oddity. Generally they were shocked when told that Japanophiles loved to call themselves Otaku and had things like Otakucon etc.
Why?
Because in Japan, Otaku has an extremely negative conotation. Otaku it seems basically means 'mania'. An obsession about something. When your life is devoted to one thing only above all else, generally something uncool. But it seems more to mean geek. Outright geek. No social skills, no life, mothers basement, perverted, stinking to high heaven geek. You know the stinky Fanboy in a comic shop or playing D&D? Times that by 10. Thats what an 'otaku' seems to be in Japan.
There doesn't seem to be the ironic chic attached to geekery like whats popped up in the west in recent years.
Its just social death.

i thought of this after my girlfriend said boys who play computer games are considored otaku's (she is japanese), and i informed her that in the west, most boys around my age have a computer and games to go with it, since playing computer games is just one way i pass free time.

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I think its a fine line really, and a 'translation issue'. Girls and boys play games over there too. Even the 'cool' kids. Not as much as I expected, but they do. But being really into games? Being a little... obsessed? Thats Otaku.

it also came to my attention of reading a web based comic where two "otaku's" meet a main character who is japanese, and proceed to act in (an obviously) a extremely otaku fashion.

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Oh dude, I HATE that. The Japanophiles and western 'otakus' that want to meet Japanese or have Japanese friends because its like having a pet Japanese to match your hobbies. Its just as bad as Japanese that'll only be friends with you to get free english lessons.

as for everyone else as usual, feel free to share your cosndiored and reasonably written opinions and feelings here, i dunno why but i really want a discussion to get to the heart of what otaku is and why it is :S.

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Honestly, I can't understand the Japanophile/Otaku mindset.
Being interested in Japan and its culture is one thing.
The extent that Otakus go to is just stupid.
Freaking out when they meet a Japanese person.
Speaking and typing in that ridiculous broken japanese english mixed with Japanese words, generally wrongly used.
Arguing with people who have life experience in Japan about Japan because what they saw in an Anime contradicts the other real life experiences.

Interestingly enough, we had an 'otaku' type from New York start as english teacher at NOVA at a school I worked at. He apparantly crashed very hard when the Japan of his epectations didn't match the Japan he was living in. Last I heard he completely wigged out and got shipped home.

ANY LABEL BESIDES "DIRTY OL MAN"??

I'm obsessed with beautiful young Japanese girls with long black hair; wondered if the dictionary has a good name for that ??

Uncle Frank

Frank D. White said:

I'm obsessed with beautiful young Japanese girls with long black hair; wondered if the dictionary has a good name for that ??

Uncle Frank

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Hang on I'll check...


*reads*

Yeap

Hetero.

here's the formentioned comic..



i used to like anime and japan but i think i was only a borderline otaku at best, i mean, i can draw manga, but, ive never really obsessed over japan, and i stopped really watching anime or buying manga as i grew up and you know, became normal (if theres such a thing...)
so i guess otakuness could be labelled a folly of youth, but what stops people climbing out the social scuicide of otaku as they grow older?..at 14 i was thinking tenchi was the best thing ever to happen to mankind above all else, by 16 i was pretty much bored with anime, so i guess in my case it was a fad, and in adult otaku's, it might just be an obsession.
i dunno, i guess i just find japanophilia extreme even for the phenomena of obsession as a human condition so yeah, :S
yeah, i just find otaku'ness, japanophilia a real nut to crack (i really wish i had something more worth while to ponder over today... lol).

Hang on I'll check...


*reads*

Yeap

Hetero.

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second that.

Thanks for the topic. Superfluous and superficial Japanophilia has always been more than a little annoyance for me. Yeah, I guess I'm a little biased against this...

I think it's a huge bother to me when I think about how bloody reductive the perspective of the subculture is, so that it paints a ridiculous idyllic fantasy on a nation that has its faults like any other. And I'm sure it's a bother to Japanese who can't stand having their culture reduced to pidgin Japanese and simplistic pop culture icons.

Honestly, I can't understand the Japanophile/Otaku mindset.
Being interested in Japan and its culture is one thing.
The extent that Otakus go to is just stupid.
Freaking out when they meet a Japanese person.
Speaking and typing in that ridiculous broken japanese english mixed with Japanese words, generally wrongly used.
Arguing with people who have life experience in Japan about Japan because what they saw in an Anime contradicts the other real life experiences.

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I'm with you on that.

One of the western subcultures that really bugs me is the j-pop music fanculture. While I like some of the music myself, it seems like so-called obsessive "fangirls" (and fanboys) have some kind of allergy to serious discussion of the music, and focus more on how "kawaii" the musicians are (and sometimes even how they'd like said musicians to sleep with them...). And whenever they do talk about the music, discussions are usually too narrow-minded. That and the fans can sometimes be way too hyper... But I know fans of the music that are actually sane, so it's not that bad.

nurizeko said:

i thought of this after my girlfriend said boys who play computer games are considored otaku's (she is japanese), and i informed her that in the west, most boys around my age have a computer and games to go with it, since playing computer games is just one way i pass free time.

...

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You should tell her that the video game industry outgrosses the motion picture AND music industry combined, which it does in the west. If she's one of those Japanese girls that equates "popular" with "good", see how she responds to that.

I dont think she said it seriously (otherwise i wouldnt have the pleasure of being her boyfriend for over 2 years) but, she was stating that in japan, otaku's spend ALOT of their time gaming away.

She really likes britney spears ("daikirai" aka hates ayumi hamasaki though) and thats odd, because, ive never really thought much of western pop-stars, so, everytime she mentions "bri-chan" or the backstreet boys (i hate it when she talks about male pop-stars she idolizes but...its just a girl thing i guess) i have to grin and bear it, lol.

She also loves america so, :S (i just see america as faulty as japan or my own country) but she is NOTHING like the way a western otaku is about japan.

I mean i know what being a geek, a social non-entity is, ive been there but, ive never really got whats so bad that drives someone to the perminant near disturbed distorted behaviour of otaku's.

I agree in the fact they think japan is like heaven, even with issues like a hard upbringing, its hard to emagine the extent of trauma that drives an individual to believe the impossible I.E. otaku-japan to be the possible and un-assailable fact japan.

I think we need a considored opinion from an actual otaku here, even if it just provides a starting point in disecting the phenomenon.

Suffice to say when im with my girlfriend i make sure to avoid anywhere that appears to be hosting 'cons, lol :S
Though a dark evil part of me smirks at the thought of an otaku's raging jeliousy as i walk hand in hand with my woman lol

Thats an irony of the sub-culture ive noticed, the one thing they love the most is what stops them having it.

White American appropriation of japanese sub-cultures is as boring as ever, but then again, so are Japanese 50s greasers and overly serious Japanese hip-hop.

I remember when I first joined JREF, one of my first posts was to help me establish if I had this 'condition', because I was concerned about what japanese people would think of me (my pan pal and people at NHK London)

I'm not a huge anime fan (don't get me wrong, I think it's brilliant, I just choose to buy records instead.
I don't really like J-Pop(although Aya Matsuura is so cute), or J-Rock, but I don't like pop music from most countries,anyway.

So I guess I don't display a lot of the obvious 'signs'.

However, I do have a fascination for Japan that I occasionally I find a bit strange.
I like most of the japanese people I meet, movies, food, design, the old and new, cute things, and I'm trying to learn more language. And what Frank.D.White said!
There is not another country in the world that I'm interested in so many aspects of.
I think Japan can be addictive - and I have found myself slowly getting into things that before I wasn't fussed about.

I think that because it is so different, you have to learn quite a lot about Japan if you intend to visit there and actually get something out of it.

Recently I was wondering that because of my personal interest in Japan and my job, it was taking over my personality - so I take care not to forget the other things that make me who I am.
I have found that generally my colleagues (all Japanese except 1) are pleased that I'm interested in Japan - Maybe it depends on whether you're only fixated on certain things. People like this are often frowned upon in other cultures,anyway.
One thinks of the 'Comic store guy' out of The Simpsons.

I just have to keep it real...Rich303

PCPooka said:

"Because in Japan, Otaku has an extremely negative conotation. Otaku it seems basically means 'mania'. An obsession about something. When your life is devoted to one thing only above all else, generally something uncool. But it seems more to mean geek. Outright geek. No social skills, no life, mothers basement, perverted, stinking to high heaven geek. You know the stinky Fanboy in a comic shop or playing D&D? Times that by 10. Thats what an 'otaku' seems to be in Japan. There doesn't seem to be the ironic chic attached to geekery like whats popped up in the west in recent years.
Its just social death."

He's dead-on. There is no better explanation of what "otaku" means to the Japanese at least from my experiences when questioned about the matter and from those i've met.

Frank D. White said:

I'm obsessed with beautiful young Japanese girls with long black hair; wondered if the dictionary has a good name for that ??

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Jiji?

(as my fiancee calls me on a daily basis) ;-)

Iron Chef said:

PCPooka said:

"Because in Japan, Otaku has an extremely negative conotation. Otaku it seems basically means 'mania'. An obsession about something. When your life is devoted to one thing only above all else, generally something uncool. But it seems more to mean geek. Outright geek. No social skills, no life, mothers basement, perverted, stinking to high heaven geek. You know the stinky Fanboy in a comic shop or playing D&D? Times that by 10. Thats what an 'otaku' seems to be in Japan. There doesn't seem to be the ironic chic attached to geekery like whats popped up in the west in recent years.
Its just social death."

He's dead-on. There is no better explanation of what "otaku" means to the Japanese at least from my experiences when questioned about the matter and from those i've met.

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Just one point: that explanation is several years out of date. Since early this decade, the term 'otaku' has become more socially accepted and now portrays a 'great liking' for something.

If someone likes photography, for example, he/she will probably refer to him/herself as a "photo otaku". Someone that likes live action movies would say he/she is a "movie otaku".

So, while "otaku" had a bad connotation in the 80s/90s, that is no longer the case. You can say you are a "Manga otaku" with no problems. "Anime otaku" may depend on your age, but I noticed that the japanese expect lots of things from outsiders, so...

Regards,
Keoland

You should've seen my sister-in-law when my husband told her that he thought only otaku took Hikaru Utada's US debut seriously. She had an "eeeeeewwwwwwww" look on her face. Obviously, "otaku" doesn't have a good meaning to her.

kirei_na_me said:

You should've seen my sister-in-law when my husband told her that he thought only otaku took Hikaru Utada's US debut seriously. She had an "eeeeeewwwwwwww" look on her face. Obviously, "otaku" doesn't have a good meaning to her.

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Does she like Hikaru Utada's music better than your husband ? It may take on a more negative flavor in a disagreement.

I suppose it would be similar to calling a baseball player "baseball baka" or dancer is "dance baka," (for work or as a hobby). Whether the expression is taken as a compliment or insult depends on their skill level and the level of respect they are able to command, among other factors....

Keoland said:

Just one point: that explanation is several years out of date. Since early this decade, the term 'otaku' has become more socially accepted and now portrays a 'great liking' for something.

If someone likes photography, for example, he/she will probably refer to him/herself as a "photo otaku". Someone that likes live action movies would say he/she is a "movie otaku".

So, while "otaku" had a bad connotation in the 80s/90s, that is no longer the case. You can say you are a "Manga otaku" with no problems. "Anime otaku" may depend on your age, but I noticed that the japanese expect lots of things from outsiders, so...

Regards,
Keoland

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Really?

Mate I better head on back to Japan and tell that to my friends I spoke to 7 months ago, and all the other Japanese people, housemates and students, as well as email writers who had their articles translated to english that Otaku still isn't social suicude and someone to avoid at all costs in Japan.


It still does not have the ironic chic attached to 'geekdom'.

Otaku still translates to social pariah as far as I'm concerned. When I meet people studying japanese who describe themselves as such, I just nod and walk away. I have no interest in cosplay or drooling over jpop/rockstars or worshipping idols and my interest in anime and manga is limited to improving my reading and listening abilities (and learning totally obscure vocabulary).

I'm sorry, but when someone calls themself an otaku and bases their obsessions on a façade, they lose respect points with me.

PopCulturePooka said:

Mate I better head on back to Japan and tell that to my friends I spoke to 7 months ago, and all the other Japanese people, housemates and students, as well as email writers who had their articles translated to english that Otaku still isn't social suicude and someone to avoid at all costs in Japan.

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Well, the people I talked to had other pointed out otherwise - and they weren't into anime, but rather more into technical stuff such as video rendering and photography.

We seem to have different experiences, then. I suppose it really depends on whom you speak with

Regards,
Keoland

I have yet to meet a single Japanese refer to themselves as anything otaku... You're right though, I guess it all depends on one's interpretation and the perceptions of those around them.

As with most geeks in general, they fully understand and cant emagine being any other way, they probably wonder why they are social outcasts, that is the western otaku, they LOVE their fantasy of japan and all interests that go with it, and they cant emagine why everyone else doesnt, but, for the rest of us, it still seems overly creepy, but, that goes the same for people who have a garage dedicated as a museum to sweet potatos or something.

Still, as free as they are to idolise and live as they wish, i still get the impression otaku in japan is social death, and otaku in the west isnt much better, if i met a real otaku now (i never have) i would probably walk away, and if i sense an otaku with my spidey senses (lol) and im with my girlfriend, ill just cross the street, a little girl near where i live who always says hi to my girlfriend and points her to her little mates is fine, she's just never seen a japanese girl before (plus their little pseudo friendship is cute) but, when that creepy otaku gaze locks onto my lady, i fear for her .

Its still a mystery really, given a chance, most western otaku's could be decent individuals, and they wouldnt need to resort to the secret social order of the otaku community for their status but then again, thats it really, much like ive chosen the label of (mostly) regular guy with a bit of gamer on the side and socialise within that, otaku's have chosen the magical and enchanted social label of otaku, and socialise within that.

If i remember anything from my mildy otaku teenage years, its that there was us (the otaku's) and everyone else, and the glitzy false image of japan gave something nice and hopeful to think about, especially when as a mid teen, life could easily seem harsh and depressing (which is really just lack of understanding and experience).

Some folk dont grow out of it i guess and so, you get the older otaku's.

In some ways an otaku's obsession of the japanese person (especially girls) is similar, if more intense, then the milder japanese facination with americans.

I like the way you compared the concept of otaku to other non-japanese related obsessions and the common reaction of people outside that particular group to think them odd and avoid them. I avoid taking my girlfriend to places where that sort of person frequents; I can't stand people who put her on a pedastel simply she was born in Japan like it's some sort of gift.

this brings up another term that has been bouncing around, 窶敵窶堋ｦ(moe). This term refers to an obsession with a specific person or character, such as ﾆ短ﾂーﾆ停?ｰﾂーﾆ停ぎﾂーﾆ停?懌?敵窶堋ｦ(sailor moon moe) or ﾂ渉ｬ窶碗窶堙､窶堋､窶堋ｱ窶敵窶堋ｦ(ogura yuuko moe). What implications are involved in the usage of this label? is it considered a subset of otaku, and still social suicide? or is this considered a more socially acceptable fixation, like an American with an unhealthy obsession with a specific celebrity, but otherwise functions normally in social circles?

It seems in behaviour, much like a wider obsession I assume you mean those who's fandom goes beyond a normal "soandso are my favorate band/actor/whatever".

I think "unhealthy obsession" with a specific character or person (who is usually just an invented identity anyways, like a rock star or some other form of celebrity) would be a pretty good description of the term, without being insulting. Fanatic would be another way to say it, using the wikipedia definition:

Fanaticism, from French fanatique or Latin fanaticus 'of a temple, inspired by a god'.

Fanatical character, spirit or conduct.

A fanatic is a person filled with excessive, uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause, or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby.

Historian Richard Pipes, when categorizing Lenin and the bolsheviks as a fanatics rather than utopians, refers to the definition by philosopher George Santayana: "Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim." (Life of Reason, 1905, vol. 1, Introduction)