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Hiroshima and Nagasaki

komachi said:
I just quoted some lines from this book, written by a Hongkong person.
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If what Mr Xie Yongguang is saying is true, it would be necessary to investigate Korean war crimes against the Chinese. I wonder if any of the crimes were touched upon in Tokyo's IMTFE trial or the Chinese military tribunal. If not, this would be another example of war crimes not being exposed sooner or immediately after the war, but becoming public only after more than 50 yrs.

But my question was also, "So how does that invalidate my post ?"

sorry, I tried it. Is the use of the nucleus acquitted because they are victims of Old Japan?
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I see it now. I think the question may have had two parts;
1) Is the US gov't innocent in using the A-bomb on the Japanese civilians because the US suffered attacks and war losses with IJA?
2) Will the Japanese gov't remain innocent in its possible future use of the A-bomb against a possible nuclear onslaught by a foreign country such as N.Korea or China?
What is this group?
Signed-- by whoever can rightfully represent the people of Japan
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I wrote it; I probably should have dug up anti-nuclear writing by a Japanese citizen, but I just wrote something that I thought any conscientious person with some understanding of the cruelty of 1) the IJA atrocities and 2) the A-bomb could have written. I believe I was clear by saying that I was giving you a sample statement; in fact, I referred to it as an "example," or "sample" several times.

I understand better what you said; but how does that make my statement "wrong ?"
 
Japanese and Korean invaded China and other Asian countries for release from the western country together.
The Korean was forced, but they were Japanese.
And Korea had profited from Japan in early annexe age.
(Of course, the latter half of IJ was terrible, I know.)
So, I think Korea and China is not completely the same situation at WW2.
this is my personal opinion.


I know, as a result, the Asian citizensﾂ was brought richness and freedom by the U.S.

At the same time, I think two different types of atomic bombs still leaves a few problems.


124,711 citizens died only by the air raid on Tokyo on March 10, 1945.
10,000 citizens or more died in Osaka by the air raid of several degrees till August 14.
There were 1000 or 2000 dead scale air raid on many cities of Japan.

ttp://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~un3k-mn/kusyu.htm


I guess if the U.S.'s purpose was not experiment,the U.S. should have urged surrender threateningly at first, before Hiroshima,

"We have terrible new weapons.
Next we will be Tokyo, or other place.".

If the U.S. did so, there was no "the 2nd atomic bomb attack".

After all, victor's atrocity is not judged as for the rule of the world.
And, the human race might repeat the war.
I do not want to hate any country.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/kyoiku/learning/editorial/20050318/index.htm
 
You are making claims bold enough to start another war in my opinion: in a word you are just another revisionist /denialist who thinks that Japan has been the victim all along. I could go on but shall leave you to the sharks.
So be it for now. How does "that" opinion of yours make my post no.81 problematic?
Where did I ever claim that "Korea and China IS completely the same situation at WW2"?
Even if I concede to your outrageous claims; what does that have anything to do with my post?
Does it comfort you to have had Korea as your ally in WWII?
But aren't you forgetting Korea was a colony, without a ruling government exercising its sovereignty?
Your logic can be likened to incest or having sex with a doll.
Instead, please state clearly your reasoning as in "because so-&-so is such-&-such. Therefore lexico's post no.81 has a problem," or "lexico's post no.81 is incorrect in that blaa is blab."
I know, as a result, the Asian citizensﾂ was brought richness and freedom by the U.S.
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If as you say that Japan and Korea invaded China and other Asian countries to "liberate" them from western powers, why was there any need for the US to intervene to the point of "liberating" them? Are you naive enough to believe that countries are so concerned with other people's well being as to go to wars in deadly competition, to be the greater benefactors in the wars of liberation? The fact that war is profitable is the reason why countries go to war. The winner makes more money, whereas the loser loses money or doesn't make as much eventually. Although the civilian victims have all the sympathy they deserve, you have failed again to state how that invalidates my post no. 81. I also think the US should have considered all other workable possibilities before deciding to take the route of straight dropping the A-bombs. I would truly like to believe that possibility, but US views deny that as said in the A-bomb related threads on the forum.
After all, victor's atrocity is not judged as for the rule of the world.
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Well here's your chance; go ahead with your accusations, and you have all my support although the forum is not a court of law. At least you can have the satisfaction of stating your claims, backing them up, and countering any views advocating the inevitability of using the A-bomb by the US.
And, the human race might repeat the war.
I do not want to hate any country.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/kyoiku/learning/editorial/20050318/index.htm
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Sure, I believe you, although you have presented some dangerously inaccurate views here, we seem to agree that using A-bombs on civilians was, is, and shall be deemed wrong by all standards.
 
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What do you mean by "sharks"?

Does it mean anything a scary thing?

anyway,
I thought you said that Japan must not complain even if China and North Korea drop the nucleus to Japan because of 100 years ago, in your #81.

I seriously worry about slaughtering the Japanese shortly.

I might be nervous for a moment because the trend of N&S Korea and China is insisting, "you can do any things to Jap. Because they are Jap.".
 
komachi said:
what do you mean by "sharks"?

does it mean anything a scary thing?
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Nothing like anything threatening; I meant to say something funny... Some people are highly critical of views reflecting revisionism/minimalism/denialism. I was looking for a word to express that, but they are decent people with a stronger sense for truth, justice, and logic compared to me. I admit it was a bad word choice, yet it was not a threat on you or any disparaging word on those excellent individuals.
Anyway,
I thought you said that Japan must not complain even if China and North Korea drop the nucleus to Japan because of 100 years ago, in your #81.
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Where did I say that? Please reread my post no. 81 and tell me what I said regarding the "positioning of nuclear missiles in N.Korea/China in Japan's direction."
I seriously worry about slaughtering the Japanese shortly.

I might be nervous for a moment because the trend of N&S Korea and China is insisting, "you can do any things to Jap. Because they are Jap.".
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That would be below us. We would rather die than engage in such vile acts. I am only an individual but ask any Korean, southerner or northerner. Ask any Chinese with whom you can establish stable contact and ask them the question. Slaughter? CJK, Imperial Japan was the only nation capable of the vile acts of violence due to its aggressive expansionist/imperialist/racist ideas. Please do not project your self-reflection on IJA and the imperialist machine that drove it to commit the atrocities on others.

As much as it is wrong to hold modern individuals responsible for committing the atrocities themselves, it is also wrong to assume that you are somehow obligated to defend IJ ideas and IJA's past actions because most Japanese citizens of Imperial Japan were also victims of the war machine. I believe most Japanese citizens of that time were also forced into becoming accomplices to those crimes; their sin/responsibility lies not in active participation of that criminal behaviour, but in not resisting orders and pressures to follow inhumanity. However, to continue defending what even you would amount to perjury as a willing accomplice and continue inhumanity. What is your choice?
 
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lexico said:
I meant to say something funny...
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I got relieved.
You are so logical.
And you seem native English speaker to me.



These are dangerous and frightening sentences for the Japanese.
These made me so nervous.
The atomic bomb is not the world of movies for the Japanese.

you said 10million. or 6 million by 4 million by the conservative figures.

A conservative group doesn't say 4 million people.
isn't it a mistake of "maximum is 40,000"?
I know China has started to say 10 million people recently.
but ,
Are these figures with academic proof?

China government doesn't allow the scholar in Japan to survey Nanjing.

Figures are important.

A false rumour causes the slaughter.

as you said, There is an underside in the war.
After the war, there is a underside also in processing.
The just cause is necessary also for the victorious country.
Can you say that no country makes operate the casualty toll in the civil war and the number of victims of suppression?

The Japanese are surely massacred shortly if you said even these sentence are dangerous.

To tell the truth, hate crimes (slaughter incidents) by Asian already occurred in Japan.
one of them said that "we can do any things because they were Japanese."

even a doubtful story like tabloid newspapers is becoming historical and
true .
"Because it was old Japanese empire army,
No one can trust it. No need to check.
Hey! Apologize instead of them! "

I will reflect more about our race's history if "10million. or 6 million by 4 million" is true.
However, if it is propaganda of the country somewhere,
it is outrageous mad story.

It is very effective for the unity of the country to make the common foe.
Old Japan did it.

Iﾂ talked with you about Korean people at the old time.

you said the insecure evidence I took out testimony and the national material.
Didn't you hold bad feelings?

I want to point out that if North Korea became the camp of so-called freedom, China apologised to United Korea.

If this would come, probably you think as a U.Korean,
"We must apologize if it is true.
ahh, but is it true?"

I have such doubt and a conscience.
 
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Komachi-

This is familiar information that has been gone over on this forum again. It is also one of the reasons for the continuing strong sentiments regarding the activities of the Imperial Japanese Army seventy years ago. The Japanese continue to undercut every attempt at apology with historical revision, excuses, and minimization of the role she played in the most violent chapter of human history.

The invasion of China, including attrocities committed in Nanjing and other places, and including the use of biological weapons is well documented. The figures will never be exactly known, but they are high. China will give you figures in excess of 10 million, but the difficulty in estimating the exact number- and fairly ruling out those from the civil war and other causes.

When you speak about the things remeber the context during the darker days of the last century and realize that it was the unilateral actions of Japan and Japan alone that set into motion the entire Pacific war.
 
The United States took away materials data of unit731.

By the way,

In the Korean War, the United States did biological warfare using the material confiscate from unit.731.

We have information that the U.S.Army was making hundreds of women forced women to provide sex brothels for the U.S. soldiers at the military during the Korean War.

Moreover, a lot of sex crimes happened, 30,000 victims or more were
generated every year.

↑
A lot of such like these site of Asian Japanese are existing.

please try it "google" with
朝鮮戦争 細菌戦 七三一 アメリカ.

↓

朝鮮戦争・Korean War
細菌戦・bacteriological warfare
七三一・731
アメリカ. America(The U.S.)


The U.S. deny it as negative propaganda of communism.

Of course, I know about unit.731.
Japan does not deny experiment in WW2.
Is not it permitted to Japan to demand proof of figures?
Asian people still live in the information war of the Cold War.
How can we believe everything?

Is it impossible that the Japanese appeals for the abolition arms of the worst in the history of humanity?

Why are not arms that melted 300,000 persons in one moment exhibited in Smithsonian of The U.S. of God's justice yet?

After all, everything is politics.
 
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As far as I know- yes the US took materials and data from unit 731. The US military continues to profit from this information and has based both offensive and defensive systems on findings based on unethical research.
No, they (US Military) did not use biological weapons in the Korean War or any other war.
No, the US military has not run brothels since the Civil War, and does not engage in the sex slave trade. They did however schedule RR flights to cities with well known sex industries.
Yes Japan should appeal for the abolition of nuclear, chemical and biological arms.
Yes Japan should demand proof, and admit wrong-doing when it is proven.
Yes, don't believe all the cold war propaganda.
The atomic bombs which killed about 130,000 people in two moments combined- amd many thousands more in the days, months and years afterwards, are exhibited (in photos and replicas) at the Smithsonian because they are historically important and helped to end WWII. A temporary exhibit was not without a lot of controversy- and many WWII American Veterans found it too sympathetic to the Japanese.

I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make...
 
komachi said:
The United States took away materials data of unit731.

By the way,

In the Korean War, the United States did biological warfare using the material confiscate from unit.731.
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Gee, you forgot the hundreds of North Korean P.O.W.s brought over to Area 51 for cross-breeding experiments with alien survivors from Roswell, New Mexico.
 
I'm not an anti-nuclear activist.

And, I don't want to be considered to be an anti-nuclear activist.

Because anti-nuclear activists are easy to arrive anti-Japan and anti-U.S.

I only wanted everyone to know the fear of the nucleus.
At least let depiction of the movie make improve, please.
Because there are heroes alone who are not exposed to radiation because the
the wind is opposite, in Hollywood movies and drama.
For example, "THE SUM OF ALL FEARS", "24hours", and so on.
They are pathetic ignorance info about the nucleus.
they seems no one know even "black rain".

I thought "so, people using depleted uranium munitions" andﾂ "the next WW3".

i was not supposed to discuss about the history.
because it can do nothing but bring doubt and hate.

Where did I miss away from the subject?

yes,it was since my #82.

though Chinese paper began to insist that "Okinawa was mine".
But there seem to be a lot of people who think the cold war already ended.




ArmandV said:
Gee, you forgot the hundreds of North Korean P.O.W.s brought over to Area 51 for cross-breeding experiments with alien survivors from Roswell, New Mexico.
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Hi, Armando!
Of course, it's your joke.
 
I read about the poignant, somber ceremonies marking this year's anniversary. if i find a reference on line I will post it- but the newspaper article was very sobering.
 
I just visited the D-Day museum in New Orleans. Excellent War in the Pacific wing- including an atomic bomb display. Well worth seeing.
 
Simply based on the fact that two cities and the life of it was whiped out so coldly without mercy pretty much does all the explaining for me, the Atomic bombs were war crimes, it is no different from taking a whole city of civillians and shooting them in the head, every last one of them, and destroying their city.

Only this way is more efficient at it.


There was no real reason to drop nukes on japan, especially two, blah blah blah stop the war, blah blah blah, save lives, BS, America dropped two nukes on civillian centres, they wernt strategic bombing raids against factories, they knew how powerful it was going to be, and they intentionally whiped out two cities and the lives of the innocent people living there.

The American leadership back then made a mistake, gladly, they never let it happen again.
 
Well said, Nurizeko, but this remark could be contested;
The American leadership back then made a mistake, gladly, they never let it happen again.
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We must not forget the 1954 U.S. hydrogen bomb testing at Bikini Atoll in the South Pacific that showered fallout on the crew of a Japanese trawler. Was the US still intent on knowing the destructive powers of nuclear weapons, and threatening the rest of the world with it? What a shame.

Here's a mock trial held recently on the 1954 testing. Was that a third bomb to strike the Japanese?
 
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Back to the illegal argument- was the atomic bombing any more illegal than fire bombing 80 other cities? And what were the other options? I can arm chair monday morning QB this thing all I want, but the decision was consistant with the hellish inhumanity the war created and Americans accepted. In the context of WWII as horrible as it was, it was the quickest way to end a very bloody war. Consider the consequences of two or more years of fighting on Japanese soil, along with continued bombing, shelling and an embargo starving the Japanese into surrender.

This whole thing was criminal and awful. I would love to turn back the clock and have the Japanese not only NOT bomb Pearl Harbor in 1941, but NOT invade China ten years earlier. I guarantee the bombs would not have incinerated anyone 60 years ago this month.
 
As a japanese girl was quoted as saying on a website i read:

"Japan shouldnt have started the war by attacking pearl harbour, but America shouldnt have finished it with two atomic weapons".

Japan was in no real position to offer any serious resistance, America was free to faff about the pacific doing what they wanted.

The only reason they didnt nuke tokyo is because they needed the top brass to sign surrender documents, if they had, my girlfriend would never have been born.

Jerks.

And as stated, two was a pointless i mean, even the most nationalistic japanese couldnt dispute the fact the americans had the bomb after the first one.
 
You might want to read the thread before you come in here and just state your opinion. Your view doesn't really reflect the reality of the time at all. People making statements about what is right and wrong according to values that are 60 years removed from the situation at the time is pointless and enlightens nothing.
 

Care to tell the survivors and their families that the atomic bombs were right? Good luck.
Japan was losing the war, it was a matter of time and nothing more, but because of this race to end it, thousands upon thousands of Japanese died most inhumanly.

I'm sorry, I usually try to consider the motivations of all sides to a debate. Still, I just can't get my head around why American leadership thought genocide of Japanese civilians was in any way acceptable, that kind of behaviour was meant to be the reserve of fascism and history, not of the liberator of the free world...

It doesn't matter if it got japan to surrender, it doesn't matter if it ended the war sooner, it doesn't matter if it stopped Russia getting a larger grip in Asia, IT KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Please, try to tell me that school-children were willing supporters of an evil regime.

Just as millions of Americans have no real say or effect on government, and are just living their lives, most of the Japanese dead in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were normal people going about their normal lives.

Think of it like this, would you be willing to accept two nukes on American cities to end an American war by another country, taking out the vast majority of innocent people in those cities, to get America to surrender?...do you think it would be fair that they died without saying or appeal for an American foreign war?, would it be fair that American children who didn't even know what was going on, let alone the "noble" sacrifice of dying for one's country, to die in such a manner?.


Just because they were foreigners and died 60 years ago, DOESNT justifies murder; they were innocent HUMAN-BEINGS.

I dunno, I know war is a sad fact of human existence, and sometimes it's justified, but, I draw the line at atomic weaponry being used against civilian populations, just a thing called human respect.

There's no-one to blame, they probably didn't fully realise what they were doing, and they probably did regret the decision afterwards. Its proof the world learned its lesson by the fact a nuke has never been used against another people ever since, still, it doesn't change the fact that at its bare bones, dropping nukes on a city is wrong, killing thousands of mostly innocent people is wrong, so though there is no-one to really blame. It happened, and it taught the world a lesson, it will never justify fully the fact Japanese people were murdered in such an inhuman fashion.

At least we can all agree world war 2 was a situation in which every side of the conflict did regrettable things. Wrong things and dwelling on it don't solve anything. Still, yeah, sometimes I feel it would be nice that instead of arguing over statistics and military-strategic nitpicking, everyone could appreciate that people died and deserved better than that.
 
The sadness of history, over and over: When humans fight each other and justify killing each other. Why not have a soccer game, or a poker game instead? No, that would be too simple.

Humanity (or humankind) seems to need wars, more wars, and more wars. The benefit of the nuclear bombs... one recent opinion is that yes, it hastened the end of the war, but two... it was a message to the Soviets... butt out of Japan, we WILL USE THIS WEAPON ON YOU TOO!

But as one person posted, how can we argue 60 years after the war's tragic facts, and all the insanity, and all the inhumanity on all sides? I suppose the world is more civilized now, as all of us can injure and maim with napalm and white phosphorous and land mines and bioweapons and suicide planes and dirty bombs and ... etc. etc. Are there any more civilized than nuclear bombs? They all make me sick.

Have you noticed how Japanese veterans and American veterans meet on the same battlefield today and shake hands? How is that possible? The answer, because we now see each other as human beings, not insects.

When we are at war, we are taught to dehumanize the enemy. They are animals, not worthy of living?!? History tells us we are virtually identical DNA... we are family fighting more family. Nagasaki wasn't the closest building to the 2nd nuclear bomb's detonation, a Christian elementary school?

Isn't it a Chinese proverb... "The cheapest way to fight a war"... Wait 20 years! If 20 years doesn't work, "wait twenty more years".

Pray for understanding among all peoples. We are all so much the same.
 
RE: The sadness of history, over and over:

Neocolonialism is colonialism in the lambskins of ideologies - same old greed in continuation. The Soviets had to be checked because the late realisation of the US that the 3 million strong Kanto Army in Manchuria was weaker than expected, hence asking the Soviets to enter the war was a mistake. To check the mistake, another was made, no, two.
Have you noticed how Japanese veterans and American veterans meet on the same battlefield today and shake hands? How is that possible? The answer, because we now see each other as human beings, not insects.
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Sorry to differ. The main reason they can do it is that the victor sees it fitting and profitable... for now.
Nagasaki... wasn't the closest building to the detonation of the 2nd nuclear bomb, a Christian elementary school?
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I randomly recall one of the reasons for choosing Nagasaki WAS: a sizeable Christian population there to prove... TO PROVE that the US was not genocidal -- discriminating on the mostly Buddhist-Shintoist population of Japan. Can you believe that? To be called fair, they chose the most Christian city in Japan. Reverse discrimination in extremes, but it doesn't change that they were still mostly Japanese. The wise trick, damned hypocrites - want to get credit by killing Christians.
Pray for understanding among all peoples; we are all so much the same.
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I think the best cure comes from education, and education comes from penalising to ingrain the truth that crime does not pay. To avoid that, should come to an apology. But the US won't give it because of pride and compensations. Prayer in the attic won't do anything to change that.
 
Last week it was 61 years ago that the bombs fell on the cities. I hope everybody can just take some time to think about what happened, and what you can do to change the world.

Please do not forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and be happy with what you have.

* I will maybe post more in here next week, because I will go to Hiroshima for a couple of days.
 
Dutch Baka said:
Please do not forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki
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I agree!

Some 20 year ago people were very concerned about nuclear war. Now where more countries have the A-bomb and the likelihood of the weapons could actually be used is greater - hardly anyone seem concerned. I find that we should actually be much more concerned about the risk of nuclear warfare than terrorism.
 
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