He doesn't dare climb that tree.

hirashin · 13 Jul 2017

Dear native English speakers,

Which would be used? I believe (d) would not be used in the U.S.
(a) He doesn't dare to climb that tree.
(b) He doesn't dare climb that tree.
(c) He dare not climb that tree.
(d) He daren't climb that tree.

Thanks in advance.
Hirashin

OoTmaster · 13 Jul 2017

I would agree with you that (d) would not be used in the U.S. all the others seem fine to me.

diligentcircle · 13 Jul 2017

Mostly B. A would be understood and is probably a flub that a lot of us native speakers are guilty of, but technically incorrect I think. Not likely D, since "daren't" is either not even a valid contraction or at least very uncommon (Edit: In my dialect, that is; I don't know about others). I'm not sure about C, because it's an uncommon phrasing, but I think it should be "dares not", not "dare not". That manner if speaking is practically archaic for words other than modifier words like "do" and "would", so I wouldn't use it anyway for the most part.

I can't think of many realistic situations where climbing a tree would be such a huge risk that it would call for this phrasing, though. The situations I can think of are if the tree is unstable and on the verge of collapsing (i.e. climbing the tree could get you seriously hurt), or if the tree is owned by someone who would punish you severely for doing so. On the other hand, if someone is just afraid of climbing trees, you would just say something like, "He is afraid of climbing trees." or, "He doesn't like to climb trees." Something like that.

diligentcircle · 14 Jul 2017

Quick correction: looking in a dictionary (Merriam-Webster), a lot of what I thought here was just hypercorrections. "Dare not" and "dare to climb" are correct.

tasqunevie · 14 Jul 2017

hirashin said:
Dear native English speakers,

Which would be used? I believe (d) would not be used in the U.S.
(a) He doesn't dare to climb that tree.
(b) He doesn't dare climb that tree.
(c) He dare not climb that tree.
(d) He daren't climb that tree.

Thanks in advance.
Hirashin

(a) and (b) are correct. (c) is correct as well, though it's very, very formal. You will undoubtedly not hear that in casual conversation.

Majestic · 14 Jul 2017

Agree with Ootmaster. (d) is a classical contraction (found, for example, in a famous poem by William Allingham). I daren't say it is incorrect, but it is so uncommon in the US that most people would find it extremely unusual.

Up the airy mountain, Down the rushy glen, We daren't go a-hunting For fear of little men
769. Fairies. William Allingham. The Oxford Book of English Verse

Majestic · 14 Jul 2017

More on "dare vs. dare to" at the site below. According to that site, when dare is the main verb (as it is in your target sentences) it may optionally include "to" in front of the following verb.

"to" after "dare"

Majestic · 14 Jul 2017

Forgot the link. Now I can't find the exact one, but I found another one.
dare + verb vs. dare to + verb

tasqunevie · 14 Jul 2017

Majestic said:
Forgot the link. Now I can't find the exact one, but I found another one.
dare + verb vs. dare to + verb

That's correct. The English language allows the leniency of omitting a preposition (in this case, "to"). Just make sure you do not end your sentence with a preposition. That is not grammatically allowed, regardless of how many natives do it carelessly.

diligentcircle · 14 Jul 2017

Just make sure you do not end your sentence with a preposition. That is not grammatically allowed, regardless of how many natives do it carelessly.

This "rule" is made-up. Ending sentences with prepositions is very traditional and often the most elegant choice.

Brief discussion:

Lynch, Guide to Grammar and Style — P

tasqunevie · 14 Jul 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
This "rule" is made-up. Ending sentences with prepositions is very traditional and often the most elegant choice.

Brief discussion:

Lynch, Guide to Grammar and Style — P

Never mind. All I want is to learn Japanese. Apparently I have 0 expertise in the English language as a native. Gomenasai and ignore what I've said

diligentcircle · 14 Jul 2017

Hey, no need to feel bad about it. I don't think any native English speaker properly understands the English language. Who was it who hypercorrected "daren't", again?

OoTmaster · 14 Jul 2017

The prepositions "rule" is mostly used because normally your clarifying information comes after a preposition(why it's called a preposition) . So therefore the thought is that if you end your sentence with a preposition you've left out needed information. It's likely a rule that's transferred from one of the root languages that English is based off of. My guess would be Latin.

tasqunevie · 15 Jul 2017

JuliMaruchan said:
Hey, no need to feel bad about it. I don't think any native English speaker properly understands the English language. Who was it who hypercorrected "daren't", again?

Admittedly, I was in a bit of a bad mindset when I wrote that. Sorry about that, haha.

To reply more coherently, it's what I've always been taught from every single English teacher (even advanced placement)/professor. Even my main French professor (born in the U.S., but with extensive English experience also) gave me the same impressions. So you can see where the confusion came up.

Anyway, thanks for the valuable info & friendly advice.

tasqunevie · 15 Jul 2017

OoTmaster said:
The prepositions "rule" is mostly used because normally your clarifying information comes after a preposition(why it's called a preposition) . So therefore the thought is that if you end your sentence with a preposition you've left out needed information. It's likely a rule that's transferred from one of the root languages that English is based off of. My guess would be Latin.

^^^ and this would be exactly right. I'm very certain it is not allowed in the French language to end a sentence with one (it never happens, at all), and you don't even have the lenience of casually omitting them like we do in English.

He doesn't dare climb that tree.

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