expressing causation

Charles Barkley · 12 Nov 2007

I have a few questions about expressing causation. Particularly about using reative clause なる statements to express causation as opposed to causative forms. For example, a statement like: 'You should read books that make you want to study.'

Its my current understanding that this could be written:

勉強したくなる本を読んだ方がいいでしょう。 Is that correct?

Would it be correct to change it to the causative form as well? i.e.:

勉強したくさせる本を読んだ方がいいでしょう。

Would one or both of these sentences seem unnatural? What are the general principles one should keep in mind when talking about a thing that causes other things to happen (i.e., these kinds of embedded causative forms)?

Also, would the following be unnatural/wrong?

勉強したくなくなる本
勉強したくならない本
(both trying to mean 'a book that makes you not want to study')

Mikawa Ossan · 12 Nov 2007

Hmm...I am not a native speaker, but my first impulse is to say something like this:

勉強しようと思わせるような本

Why I stuck that よう in there, I have no idea. To my modest brain, it just sounds right in this instance.

Charles Barkley · 13 Nov 2007

Which よう are you talking about? The ような one or the volitional ending? I'm assuming the former...

orochi · 13 Nov 2007

I'll let a native speaker hit the nitty gritty on the causitives here, but I would suggest straying away from a direct translation. 面白い本 would be more than acceptable here.

bakaKanadajin · 13 Nov 2007

I, too, am not a native speaker and am therefore essentially useless here but I am curious as to why you used the past with 読んだ方がいい instead of 読む方がいい. I ask because your English sentence stated 'you should read' (reed) not 'should have read' (red).

Also, with 'should' I understand べき can be useful. Maybe you could say like..

日本語を勉強するために好きな本を読むべきです。
日本語を話すように好きな本を読むべきです。

Although, I think it's a little farther removed from your original intention. But, I'll suggest it for the purpose of using the べき construct and hopefully someone corrects me. (_ _

Also, if a native speaker or accomplished learner chimes in, is 読む the best verb choice? Or would 使う or 用いる be useful in the sense that it (a book you like) is something you should 'use' or 'employ' for the purpose of studying, not just 'read' like fiction or a story.

Charles Barkley · 13 Nov 2007

orochi said:
I'll let a native speaker hit the nitty gritty on the causitives here, but I would suggest straying away from a direct translation. 面白い本 would be more than acceptable here.

Yeah, perhaps this wasn't the best example. But it does seem like using a change verb/construction + naru as a relative clause is used pretty often as a causative. Anyway, I am not at all attached to the example of an interesting book, just generally interested in how to use the causative in these kind of constructions. I want to know when it would be natural and when it wouldn't.

Perhaps 'causing someone to want to do something or want something' 'したくなるもの/欲しくなるもの' would be unnatural?

Charles Barkley · 13 Nov 2007

bakaKanadajin said:
I, too, am not a native speaker and am therefore essentially useless here but I am curious as to why you used the past with 読んだ方がいい instead of 読む方がいい. I ask because your English sentence stated 'you should read' (reed) not 'should have read' (red).
Also, with 'should' I understand べき can be useful. Maybe you could say like..
日本語を勉強するために好きな本を読むべきです。
日本語を話すように好きな本を読むべきです。
Although, I think it's a little farther removed from your original intention. But, I'll suggest it for the purpose of using the べき construct and hopefully someone corrects me. (_ _
Also, if a native speaker or accomplished learner chimes in, is 読む the best verb choice? Or would 使う or 用いる be useful in the sense that it (a book you like) is something you should 'use' or 'employ' for the purpose of studying, not just 'read' like fiction or a story.

読んだ方がいい does not turn the sentence into past tense: it adds a little emphasis to your suggestion and is generally the natural way to make easy suggestions like this. Check whatever textbook you are using and it will probably describe this form.

べき indeed means should but it is not a word that shows up in conversation all that much. I would recommend trying to avoid it until you have gotten to some decent intermediate level--it'll just make your japanese sound unnatural in most cases, although its use in the above sentences is probably OK (I am not all that comfortable using it myself yet). したらいい/よんだほうがいい/なければならない and similar constructions will work out better for you at this point in the game.

Also, when you use the ようになる construction, you should put the verb in the potential form, and since its a state that is coming about, not a specific action, the particles will also change in standard ways.

日本語が話せるように...

Also, don't use 用いる. Did you find it in a dictionary when you were looking up the word use? I ask because I have never seen it before and I do quite a bit of reading. Stick to 読む if you're emphazing the act of reading and 使う if you are emphasizing using something.

undrentide · 13 Nov 2007

Charles Barkley said:
Its my current understanding that this could be written:
勉強したくなる本を読んだ方がいいでしょう。 Is that correct?

Yes, it is correct.

Charles Barkley said:
Its my current understanding that this could be written:
勉強したくなる本を読んだ方がいいでしょう。 Is that correct?

To me it sounds rather awkward because of したくさせる.
It's difficult to explain why, but the subject is not the book but the person who reads it, maybe adding this might make it less difficult to see how it works...?

（読んでいて）勉強したくなる本

Charles Barkley said:
Also, would the following be unnatural/wrong?

勉強したくなくなる本
勉強したくならない本
(both trying to mean 'a book that makes you not want to study')

Both of them are natural and good, but they are a little different in meaning/nuance.
勉強したくなくなる本 : a book that makes you not want to study - if you read it when you are willing to study, it will somehow discourage you and make you reluctant to study. (A book that discourage you to study.)
勉強したくならない本 : a book which does not make you want to study. Even if you read it, it will not help to make you feel willing to study. (A book that does not encourage you to study.)

namichidori · 13 Nov 2007

My view is very similar to undertide's.

勉強したくなる本 is quite natural. If you add 読むと(or something) to this phrase,
people will get the meaning more clearly. (i.e. 読むと勉強したくなる本)
勉強したくさせる本 is unnatural, but people can fully understand the meaning.

勉強したくなくなる本 sounds like "a book that gets you fed up with studying".
勉強したくならない本 sounds like "a book that never makes you want to study".

勉強しようと思わせるような本 sounds like "such books as make you feel like studying".
I think advice like ～を読んだ方がいいでしょう goes pretty well with ような.

For me, 勉強したくなる本 ---> direct, strong, catchy(as advertising copy)
勉強したいと思わせるような本 ---> soft, moderate, smooth
You can say like, 踊りたくなる(ような)曲、出かけたくなる(ような)天気

いいでしょう is a soft and objective expression.
When you give your students some advice, いいですよ would also be good.
Like, "勉強したくなる本を読むといいですよ。" This is a little more forceful and clear.

In this case, べき would be too strong and forceful,
though we sometimes use it in conversation/writing.

bakaKanadajin · 13 Nov 2007

Charles Barkley said:
読んだ方がいい does not turn the sentence into past tense: it adds a little emphasis to your suggestion and is generally the natural way to make easy suggestions like this. Check whatever textbook you are using and it will probably describe this form.

べき indeed means should but it is not a word that shows up in conversation all that much. I would recommend trying to avoid it until you have gotten to some decent intermediate level--it'll just make your japanese sound unnatural in most cases, although its use in the above sentences is probably OK (I am not all that comfortable using it myself yet). したらいい/よんだほうがいい/なければならない and similar constructions will work out better for you at this point in the game.

Also, when you use the ようになる construction, you should put the verb in the potential form, and since its a state that is coming about, not a specific action, the particles will also change in standard ways.

日本語が話せるように...

Also, don't use 用いる. Did you find it in a dictionary when you were looking up the word use? I ask because I have never seen it before and I do quite a bit of reading. Stick to 読む if you're emphazing the act of reading and 使う if you are emphasizing using something.

Charles thanks for taking the time to respond, it was quite helpful!</p>
RE: using potential with youni (sorry no Japanese font pack here at work) yes my careless mistake, ga + potential form. Also, re: beki now that I think about it I do rarely hear it used by friends. As for mochi iru you're right, it's something I found in the dictonary although I understood it's meaning to be use, as in employ for a purpose, that's the only reason I suggested it. I've never heard it used either.

It's hard to distinguish between Japanese that actually gets used and all the rest of it sometimes!

Elizabeth · 13 Nov 2007

bakaKanadajin said:
I, too, am not a native speaker and am therefore essentially useless here but I am curious as to why you used the past with 読んだ方がいい instead of 読む方がいい. I ask because your English sentence stated 'you should read' (reed) not 'should have read' (red).

読む方がいい is grammatically fine but the meaning gets changed around a little. With the dictionary form you should use it in the sense of "It is better to" (in this case....read") with explicit contrast to another activitiy/mode of learning, etc.

京成線のスカイライナーは１０００円位高いのに１０分位早いだけなので
普通の特急で行くほうがいいです。

Elizabeth · 13 Nov 2007

Charles Barkley said:
Also, when you use the ようになる construction, you should put the verb in the potential form, and since its a state that is coming about, not a specific action, the particles will also change in standard ways.
日本語が話せるように..

In this case probably, but ようになる can easily be used with the dictionary form as well. In these situations it most often refers to a natural development, prediction or proverbial saying such as "Familiarity breeds contempt" : 慣れると軽視するようになる。

Plain form + ようになった = extremely common of course to express the beginning of a new practice, habit or routine occurance.

The7thSamurai · 14 Nov 2007

bakaKanadajin said:
I, too, am not a native speaker and am therefore essentially useless here but I am curious as to why you used the past with 読んだ方がいい instead of 読む方がいい.

From my understanding, the reason I 読んだ方がいい is said is because it expresses a state after a certain action. In other words, the state or place you will be in after having read that book is good therefore it is recommended that you do it.

Of course you could simply just learn the sentence pattern like most people do

Charles Barkley · 15 Nov 2007

namichidori said:
勉強したいと思わせるような本 ---> soft, moderate, smooth
You can say like, 踊りたくなる(ような)曲、出かけたくなる(ような)天気

Thanks everyone for the responses. Now I have one more question, generated by the responses themselves. Normally when you create a relative clause, you end the clause with a verb (adj, etc) in the plain form. But, in the above sentence, and I have begin to notice in other sentences as well, you can end the relative clause with a verb in the plain form + ような without affecting the meaning all that much. The above example, and the following example, seam to illustrate that point:

もし途方にくれるようなことがあったら、これを開けなさい。 (a bonus point if you guess the story, although I only wrote down the first clause so the second may be inaccurate.)

Does ような just soften what you are trying to saying? Is there any additional nuance it adds? Also, can you add it whenever you want? Again, thanks in advance.

Elizabeth · 17 Nov 2007

Charles Barkley said:
Thanks everyone for the responses. Now I have one more question, generated by the responses themselves. Normally when you create a relative clause, you end the clause with a verb (adj, etc) in the plain form. But, in the above sentence, and I have begin to notice in other sentences as well, you can end the relative clause with a verb in the plain form + ような without affecting the meaning all that much. The above example, and the following example, seam to illustrate that point:
もし途方にくれるようなことがあったら、これを開けなさい。 (a bonus point if you guess the story, although I only wrote down the first clause so the second may be inaccurate.)
Does ような just soften what you are trying to saying? Is there any additional nuance it adds? Also, can you add it whenever you want? Again, thanks in advance.

Doesn't the addition of ような give the connotation "like" or "the kind of thing" and thus lead to an inherant comparison to other similar objects ?

勉強したいと思わせる本 ----> A specific book that makes you want to study
勉強したいと思わせる本 ----> The 'kind of book' or a 'book like one' that makes you want to study (in contrast with others having different qualities).

It's necessary particulary if you need to clarify for your audience the "just likeness" or "unreality" of a feeling state. 恋人に会うと、どうも（何かしら、何とか）日本に行ったような気がします for instance...

expressing causation

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ！

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

orochi

便利屋

bakaKanadajin

先輩

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

undrentide

Japa'n vagyok

namichidori

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bakaKanadajin

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Elizabeth

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Elizabeth

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The7thSamurai

Master of the Universe

Charles Barkley

TNT Basketball Analyst

Elizabeth

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