About the particle "ne"

lol500 · 7 May 2015

There are lots of resources about "ne" but I still need help so I hope you don't mind me asking.

I understand that "ne" can be translated as "right?" and "isn't it?", or informally as "hey!". I understand when they're used this way.
However I have trouble understanding when they're used like this:

Example 1:
A: What'll you eat today?
B: I'll eat sushi
A: ii desu ne. (That's good.)

Example 2:
Jaa ne (Bye)

Example 3:
Sou desu ne (Yeah)

What difference will it make had it been without the ne?

Toritoribe · 8 May 2015

#1 and #3 are the same usage. "Ne" shows that the speaker agrees with the addressee's opinion. You can't omit this "ne", since it sounds rather awkward.
As for #2, "ne" is for asking confirmation. This "ne" can be omitted, i.e., just "jaa" works fine as "good-bye/see you again".

lol500 · 8 May 2015

Thank you for your reply toritoribe.

You only mentioned it is awkward, but does it mean it is grammatically correct to omit the ne?

Toritoribe · 8 May 2015

That's grammatically correct but semantically awkward/odd/incorrect as the answer. In other words, you can't use it in that context.

Golgotha · 10 May 2015

Keep in mind that I'm a beginner student, so I don't know a whole lot. With that being said, in my studies, the rule generally is that ne is used when you fully expect the other person to agree. In English, we say "isn't it" when we think the answer is yes or no for sure, and it's implied we expect the other person to agree; the same is true with ne. For instance:

"Ii otenki desu ne?"
"It's good weather, isn't it?"

"Jaa ne" is a shortened form of "Ja matta ne!"
"I'll see you later (right?)!"

"Ii desu ne."
"That's good (right?)."

That's just my understanding though, and I'm just starting out, so listen to what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

EDIT :: I've also noticed that dropping the "ne" is grammatically correct sometimes, but it makes the sentence really hard. It'd be like if someone said "it's good weather, isn't it?" - you'd see that as friendly. But if your hotel clerk said "it's good weather", you might think that's a bit brash. Now consider that in the Japanese culture, where formality and politeness are king. Dropping the "ne" with anyone but close family and your lover would probably not be a very good thing.

Toritoribe · 10 May 2015

Golgotha said:
the rule generally is that ne is used when you fully expect the other person to agree. In English, we say "isn't it" when we think the answer is yes or no for sure, and it's implied we expect the other person to agree; the same is true with ne.

That "rule" isn't applied to the example 1 and 3 in the OP's initial post. "Ne" doesn't have the meaning "it's implied we expect the other person to agree" in these cases. For instance, in the example 1, A doesn't expect B to agree with A in the last line of the conversation. A just expresses that A agrees with B's opinion "I'll eat sushi", as I wrote in my previous post. Thus, it's more likely "That's good, I think" rather than "That's good, right?" or "That's good, isn't it?"

Golgotha · 10 May 2015

It is though, isn't it? I mean, not directly, but nothing can be translated directly like that. You're assuming the other person agrees with your sentiment. When the person says they're going to eat sushi, and you say good, you already know that they agree that it is good, as they were the one that said they were going to eat it. It's a common stance between you and the conversation partner.

For the third example, I'd still say that person is replying yes as a common agreement. I guess I should say that the rule isn't necessarily expecting the other person to agree, but more agreeing on a common stance. "Sou desu ne" to me means "it is (I agree/isn't it?)". But again, I'm just starting to learn, so maybe my understanding is completely left field. But in the case of say, "Ii otenki desu", replying with "sou desu ne" to me just means "yes I agree on the situation" rather than a literal translation of "it is, isn't it?".

I will say that my time in Tokyo made me think this as well, as a few Japanese friends I had would repeat "ne" while I was talking, almost like "isn't it?" would be repeated in US conversation.

lanthas · 10 May 2015

As usual, Tofugu has a long and in-depth article on this topic.

Golgotha · 10 May 2015

Ah, just read through that, and for once my understanding is relatively ok! It has a lot to do with the whole considering thing of others. Sorta what I was trying to say up above, but there's a ton of subtle stuff going on too. That's why I love Japanese vs. English - English is so direct to the point of almost being brash, whereas Japanese is so nuanced and interesting. Just from a linguistic point of view, it's far more interesting.

lanthas · 10 May 2015

That nuance can also be annoying and lead to misunderstandings for Westerners though. You make a business proposal and the other side says that it will be 難しい; which to you seems to mean "it'll be difficult, but may work", but in reality is just a euphemism for "forget it, no way in hell we're doing that". I can imagine foreigners reacting with "God, if it's not an option at all, then just say so from the start!" upon finding out - I know I certainly would . Learning to take these kinds of hints is part of getting to know the culture...

Oh, and on a side note, Japanese of course also allows to be coarse, direct, offensive and in general very UNnuanced (e.g. 黙れ！).

Toritoribe · 10 May 2015

Golgotha said:
It is though, isn't it? I mean, not directly, but nothing can be translated directly like that. You're assuming the other person agrees with your sentiment. When the person says they're going to eat sushi, and you say good, you already know that they agree that it is good, as they were the one that said they were going to eat it. It's a common stance between you and the conversation partner.

For the third example, I'd still say that person is replying yes as a common agreement. I guess I should say that the rule isn't necessarily expecting the other person to agree, but more agreeing on a common stance. "Sou desu ne" to me means "it is (I agree/isn't it?)". But again, I'm just starting to learn, so maybe my understanding is completely left field. But in the case of say, "Ii otenki desu", replying with "sou desu ne" to me just means "yes I agree on the situation" rather than a literal translation of "it is, isn't it?".

I will say that my time in Tokyo made me think this as well, as a few Japanese friends I had would repeat "ne" while I was talking, almost like "isn't it?" would be repeated in US conversation.

You are mixing up two different usage of ね.

１)
今日は寿司を食べます。いいですね？

２）
A: 今日何食べます？
B: 寿司にしようかな。
A: いいですね（え）。

The first example is for asking for confirmation to the addressee. ね is said with the rising intonation and is never elongated. Whereas ね is never said with the rising intonation and can be elongated in the second example "expressing agreement with the addressee's opinion".

It's often said that the sentence final particle is one of hardest things to grasp for non-native Japanese learners. I think it might be the most hardest thing. Most J-J dictionaries don't have detailed explanation about the usage or definition of them, and there are different definitions even among linguists.
さて、証左として例えば文法ハンドブックの長大な説明文をここに転載すべきや否や。ふむ。。。

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