窶堋ｯﾂ（窶堙ｪﾂ）窶堙?（窶堙?ﾂ）

J44xm · 7 Jan 2006

From http://www.nihongoresources.com/grammar/particles.htm:

窶堋ｯﾂ（窶堙ｪﾂ）窶堙?（窶堙?ﾂ） - kedo / keredo / kedomo / keredomo

"However". all four versions are used in japanese and they all mean the same.

Zuh? Then could I obtain a little advice on the nuances between the four forms? (I know that I usually see 窶堋ｯ窶堙 at the beginning of sentences.) And 窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ as well, which also means "however"? Thanks.

nice gaijin · 7 Jan 2006

しかし、like でも, is used at the beginning of the sentence to elaborate a contrasting statement or stipulation ("but," "however," etc)

all of the variations of けど are identical in their meaning, and used at the end of a clause, usually before a comma and second clause. My understanding of the different cases to use them is dependant upon the context, and is more a matter of the rhythm of the sentence than a grammatical difference.

Elizabeth · 7 Jan 2006

nice gaijin said:
窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵﾂ、like 窶堙??堙?, is used at the beginning of the sentence to elaborate a contrasting statement or stipulation ("but," "however," etc)

all of the variations of 窶堋ｯ窶堙 are identical in their meaning, and used at the end of a clause, usually before a comma and second clause. My understanding of the different cases to use them is dependant upon the context, and is more a matter of the rhythm of the sentence than a grammatical difference.

窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵﾂ、like 窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?ﾂ can also be in the middle of a sentence to separate clauses.
I think the main difference is their increasing formality with length. I don't see kedo a lot at the beginning of sentences (usually in the middle or end "(da)kedo")...but then again I don't read a lot of choppy, informal Japanese.

NANGI · 7 Jan 2006

Konnichiwa J44xm-san!
Yes, "窶堋ｯ窶堙?or 窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?)" and 窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ has same meaning. And there are various forms.

窶堋ｯ窶堙?、窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙?、窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?
those words are used in common conversation frequently, but are not so polite, and are used at the end of clause or the beginning.

an instance
I have not a cat, but have a dog!
窶扠窶堙最ｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｯ窶堙?、ﾅ陳｢窶堙遺?堙ｧﾅｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堙ｩ窶堙ｦﾂ！

窶堋ｪﾂ、窶堋ｾ窶堋ｪﾂ、窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ
thsoe word are very formal and used in a sentence but not common conversation. 窶堋ｪ and 窶堋ｾ窶堋ｪ are used at the end of clause or the beginning.ﾂ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ is used at the beginning of a clause only.

an instance
I have not a cat, but have a dog!
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?扠窶堙最ｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｪﾂ、ﾅ陳｢窶堙遺?堙ｧﾅｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

Nangi

nhk9 · 8 Jan 2006

NANGI said:
Konnichiwa J44xm-san!
Yes, "窶堋ｯ窶堙?or 窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?)" and 窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ has same meaning. And there are various forms.

窶堋ｯ窶堙?、窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙?、窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?
those words are used in common conversation frequently, but are not so polite, and are used at the end of clause or the beginning.

an instance
I have not a cat, but have a dog!
窶扠窶堙最ｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｯ窶堙?、ﾅ陳｢窶堙遺?堙ｧﾅｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堙ｩ窶堙ｦﾂ！

窶堋ｪﾂ、窶堋ｾ窶堋ｪﾂ、窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ
thsoe word are very formal and used in a sentence but not common conversation. 窶堋ｪ and 窶堋ｾ窶堋ｪ are used at the end of clause or the beginning.ﾂ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ is used at the beginning of a clause only.

an instance
I have not a cat, but have a dog!
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?扠窶堙最ｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｪﾂ、ﾅ陳｢窶堙遺?堙ｧﾅｽ窶昶?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

Nangi

This is a very good question. Here's what I think

shikashi and keredomo are very very similar. However, if one really wants to differentiate them, shikashi is more often translated as "however", whereas "keredomo" would normally be translated as "but". In other words, shikashi would have a slightly harder emphasis.

From what I know "keredomo" can be used in rather formal settings too, but not kedo, keredo.

I have seen 窶堋ｪ and 窶堋ｾ窶堋ｪ used at the beginning of a sentence in written Japanese quite a few times, normally followed by a comma. The usage would then the same as "dakedo", but in a more formal way.

J44xm · 11 Jan 2006

Thanks, everyone, for the help. It seems this question is a bit more complicated than I thought. (I should have known ...)

Damicci · 11 Jan 2006

I always thought of kedo\keredo\keredomo as an "although" translation.
自転車が持ってないけど、車が持って。
Basically still meaning the two sentences opposite kedo will be a contrasting statement. +\- kedo, -\+.

nhk9 · 12 Jan 2006

I would associate "but" with keredomo... as for although, it is usually associated with "noni". The strength of the emphasis for although is slightly stronger than that for but. There are many other althoughs, but one would have to pay attention to the specifics (eg. monono can be translated as although, but usually only used in the situation in which the main clause is about something negative)

nice gaijin · 12 Jan 2006

agreed, I would put "no ni" in the category of "even though," as it emphasizes the unexpectedness or conflict between the clauses.

Elizabeth · 12 Jan 2006

Damicci said:
I always thought of kedo\keredo\keredomo as an "although" translation.
ﾅｽﾂｩ窶彎ﾅｽﾃ披?堋ｪﾅｽﾂ昶?堙≫?堙??堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｯ窶堙?、ﾅｽﾃ披?堋ｪﾅｽﾂ昶?堙≫?堙?。
Basically still meaning the two sentences opposite kedo will be a contrasting statement. +\- kedo, -\+.

I agree they are often patterns of 'but' indicating the speaker agrees with the first part of the statement, clause or sentence, as NANGI mentioned. But in many, many other instances the English translation of conversational etiquette to introduce a measure of ambiguity is inserted unnaturally.
窶堋ｨﾅ?ﾃｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙?.... Could you do me a favor, but....*continues with the favor*. or 窶敞停?堋｢窶｢ﾂｨ窶堙可出窶堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙?、ﾋ?ｪﾂ渉鞘?堙俄?堙??堋､ﾂ？I'm going out shopping,
(but) would you like to come along ?

窶儕窶堙遺?堙ｩﾅｽ窶毒ｽﾃ?窶堙ｰﾂ述窶堙冷?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙娯?堙?、窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨﾂ深窶堋｢ﾋ?凪?督｡窶堙坂?堙遺?堋｢窶堙仰。

J C · 13 Jan 2006

I often heard 窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙? used in place of 窶堋ｯ窶堙 when the speaker wanted to buy a bit of time to think about what they were going to say next. Plus, as mentioned before, makes it sound a lot more formal.
I think of the general-purpose translation of 窶堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙? would be "however", whereas 窶堋ｯ窶堙 = "but".
J

窶堋ｯﾂ（窶堙ｪﾂ）窶堙?（窶堙?ﾂ）

J44xm

経験値が足りない

nice gaijin

Resident Realist

Elizabeth

先輩

NANGI

先輩

nhk9

先輩