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の

E

eeky

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Hi,

これらの事実のは反ばくの余地がない。

Translation given: "These facts admit of no contradiction."

What is the purpose of the second の (before は)? What difference would it make to the meaning if it was removed?
 
I can't help but think that's a typo. I feel like it should either be removed, or something should be between it and 窶堙? Where did this come from?

[Edit] Or it should be 窶堙?
 
Glenn said:
I can't help but think that's a typo. I feel like it should either be removed, or something should be between it and は. Where did this come from?

[Edit] Or it should be に.
Click to expand...
It was from tateoba.org (lots and lots of example sentences).

Maybe as you say it's just a boring old typo. に would seem to make more sense.
 
Yeah, I second Glenn-san. It must be a typo of これらの事実には.
 
By the way, is に required for がない, or would the following sentence also be correct?

これらの事実は反ばくの余地がない。
 
No, it's not required, and yes, that's correct, but they are a bit different. In これらの事実には反駁の余地がない, the topic is これらの事実に; in これらの事実は反駁の余地がない, the topic is これらの事実（が）.
 
I think に is hidden behind は in これらの事実は反駁の余地がない. に indicates the target of 余地（がある/ない）. (It might be similar usage of に in ～に用がある in this thread.)
 
Glenn said:
In これらの事実には反駁の余地がない, the topic is これらの事実に
Click to expand...
That's interesting... I never think of it like that. I think of には as being almost like one particle.
 
Well... it's all interesting now. には can be like one particle, when it's something like このプログラムを開くには・・・. Here, though, it's more like に+は. However...

Toritoribe, are you saying that whether it's 事実は or 事実には the topic is 事実に? That's a new one on me.
 
事実は and 事実には are both the topicalization of 事実に. 事実には is more common, though. The point is 事実が（反駁/反論の）余地がない is wrong. 事実 is always the target of 余地がない and can't be the subject of it. As for 用がある, this phrase can take a person both as the subject and the target, therefore に can't be omitted. (In other words, は always indicates the subject in ～は用がある. When topicalizing the target, ～には must be used.)
 
Well, that makes so much sense I feel dense for not having thought about it myself, even if I wasn't sure it was right.
 
Toritoribe said:
事実は and 事実には are both the topicalization of 事実に.
Click to expand...
Of course I can see in some formal way that 事実には topicalises 事実に, but in practice do you perceive it like that, or do you perceive には more as one entity that jointly makes a topic and a target of its argument (in this case 事実)?
 
It's always に＋は, since ～には is used in the position where ～に is used, except special usages such like #2 or 3 quoted below.

にはの意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

As for Glenn-san's example このプログラムを開くには, このプログラムを開くのに can work as an alternative (without the meaning as a topic).
 
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