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Working overtime in Japan

Davey

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5 Feb 2005
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I found an interesting article this morning about unpaid overtime that I wanted to share with you. I copied some of the main points, and the rest of it you can read over here: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20110809at.html

In principle, a work week is supposed to total 40 hours, divided into eight hours per day. Any work beyond this limit is only possible with prior agreement between the employer and employees, and is subject to overtime payment.

If you work more than eight hours a day or 40 hours a week, the overtime wage for these hours is 25 percent above the normal hourly rate. If you work more than six days a week or 20 days during a four-week period, the premium for the work on the extra days is 35 percent.

If overtime hours are done during late-night hours, which are classified as between 10 p.m and 5 a.m., the overtime premium is 50 percent (unless it is obvious that the late hours were taken into consideration when the salary was set).

If overtime work is done with the understanding of the employer but without an explicit request, the employee can still file a request for unpaid overtime wages. If the employee is ordered specifically not to do any overtime work, the employee cannot usually request any overtime wages. However, if the employee is told not to do any overtime by the employer, but given the circumstances needs to work overtime in order to accomplish the work the employer has assigned, the employee can request overtime wages.

I almost never do overtime besides some 15minutes preparation a couple of times a week, and the extra hour I work when I have to prepare for the Christmas concert and sports festival. I do remember that we had an emergency meeting a couple of years ago and we had to overwork for 4 hours, at that time I got 10.000 yen for that.

It's kinda hard to find specific information about the average work hours in Japan (maybe someone can send in that link). Answers that I have seen varies from 9 hours a day up to 11 hours. Guess if all Japanese would start to ask for money for overtime those companies would be broke by now.

I think that working 40 hours a week is the same as working 60 hours a week for the average person because it would be very hard to be focused for 11 hours a day, and to work your *** off is "like running a marathon" and that would mean become stressed out and in the worst case it could lead to Karōshi.

I found another article about the productivity of working more hours:
Productivity Means Working Smarter, Not Longer .

Anyway, what's your opinion.

1. Have you ever worked over house in Japan.
2. Did you get paid for those over hours?
3. Did you get paid the basic hourly wage for that or more.
4. Do you think it's alright to ask for paid overtime, or do you think it's just part of the job.
5. Do you think working 60 hours a week would be more productive than 40 hours a week?
 
1. Have you ever worked over house in Japan.
2. Did you get paid for those over hours?
3. Did you get paid the basic hourly wage for that or more.
4. Do you think it's alright to ask for paid overtime, or do you think it's just part of the job.
5. Do you think working 60 hours a week would be more productive than 40 hours a week?

1. In the past, I've worked more than 30 hours overtime a week. I had only one or two days off a month.
2. I never got paid for those over hours.
3. same as Q2.
4. I think people should get paid for those over hours.
5. 40 hours a week MUST be more productive.

This is just an example, and I've actually got paid the overtime wage (25% avobe nomal) when I was in a different company.

I think the biggest problem is most of Japanese employers doesn't know the word "productive". So they believe "working more hours is just equal to making more money".
 
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BritEng,
Working "over 30 hours" per week does not entitle you to overtime. Working over 40 does in most cases.

I think that working 40 hours a week is the same as working 60 hours a week for the average person because it would be very hard to be focused for 11 hours a day
When it comes to Japanese workers, businessmen are in the office as long as their boss is. So, if the boss doesn't want to go home to his wife, he stays, and the workers stay, even if it's to read comics in secret or doodle on the computer. Kiss productivity and personal health goodbye.
 
Not paying employees for overtime is illegal. It's as simple as that. The biggest problem, though, is Japan's laborers. They do not ask for this money (which would put pressure on higher management to fix the systems and save costs) nor do they look for ways to decrease their work hours or make them more efficient (which would help the individual and the company in the long run).

It's very silly.
 
1. Have you ever worked over house in Japan.

Yes. It was absolutely necessary at the hotel I worked at briefly to put in long hours on the weekend due to all the weddings we had to do.

2. Did you get paid for those over hours?

Up to point. We were under great pressure not to exceed a certain number of overtime hours per week, although I forget the number exactly. I believe it was 20. Whenever we exceeded that number we got in trouble for not being efficient enough. Our solution was to work as many hours needed, but to only report up to maximum that we wouldn't get in trouble for.

3. Did you get paid the basic hourly wage for that or more.

I don't remember. But overtime was counted separately, so I imagine it was paid at a higher rate.

4. Do you think it's alright to ask for paid overtime, or do you think it's just part of the job.

This is a tough question. I think it is just part of the job up to a point. If work needs to be done, you should stay until completion, but on the other hand there is a point after which workers become exploited.

5. Do you think working 60 hours a week would be more productive than 40 hours a week? It depends what you're doing those hours. On average, however, I would think that 40 hours would be more productive than 60.
 
Our solution was to work as many hours needed, but to only report up to maximum that we wouldn't get in trouble for.

Nooo, this is what needs to stop. If you need to work overtime and management is not willing to pay for it, then it's a management problem. They need to know this so they can properly staff for and budget for the actual work and costs required to provide the service efficiently (also known as running the business properly).
 
I agree with you on principle. I remember once I got mad at the manager or company or something and in protest I left when I reached my maximum overtime limit. They couldn't really punish me, because I was following the letter of their policy, but it meant that others had to pick up the slack. I felt bad for my coworkers, so I never pulled that stunt again.

As far as reporting your actual time working, we obviously could and did from time to time. Whenever we had too much, though, we got reamed out for it. We got paid for the time reported, but we had to pay for that in horrible chokai meetings, etc. Everyone decided it just wasn't worth it. Especially when you factor in all the other pressures we were under with "noruma" to drive sales. Yep, good times, those were... :(
 
Oops, I made a mistake.
I worked 40 hours + overtime (more than 30 hours) a week.
Now it makes sense?
Understood now. As orocji wrote, that's technically illegal.
http://www.jil.go.jp/english/laborinfo/library/documents/llj_law1-rev.pdf
30 hours/week of OT is 6 hours per day on a 5-day work week, which is insane.

Mikawa,
It doesn't matter if others had to "pick up the slack". Unpaid overtime is illegal, and if you choose not to report that to the labor standards office, that's your prerogative, but it's still illegal. This is one reason there are unions, too. To paraphrase orochi, if you absolutely have to work overtime and the boss isn't willing to pay for it, he should be the one to suffer, not you or any other worker. I know many employers here do not budget time very well (many just think linearly, too, which causes problems in more than just OT), but they have to be made to learn.
 
It doesn't matter if others had to "pick up the slack".

Exactly. And if you turn it around, all your coworkers were doing was enabling the problem. Just like handing an alcoholic another beer. Laborers need to send the message to management that changes need to be made.

Let's say you have a team of 5 guys who typically work 2 hours of overtime per night. That means you have (10*5*5) 250 hours of work per week, but management is only paying for (8*5*5) 200 hours of labor.

If the workers are inefficient, lazy, or otherwise problematic, then this problem should be addressed of course.

On the other hand, if it's just too much work, then why not turn it into a team of 6 guys who can do (8*5*6) 240 hours of work per week. Now the gap is only 10 hours, and if you split that between 6 guys and 5 days, (10/6/5), that's only 0.3 hours of overtime. Huge improvement over the 2 hours we had before.

Or you look at it from the system side. Maybe these 2 hours are caused by inefficiencies in the way business is conducted. The computers are too old, the reporting style is too long, there is too much waiting for the boss to stamp a document, etc. etc.

The list goes on. Laborers who stand up for proper payroll accounting are also standing up to improving the company. Otherwise they are just enabling the problem.
 
That hotel suffers from its treatment of employees, I can tell you that. The turnaround was tremendous.

It was a job that I did, initially hoping to make a career of, but after find out what the company was like, I took the next good offer I could find. A lot of people were the same.

You guys are absolutely right about the legality of the matter. However, one works with their coworkers. You have to get along with them and help each other out. I had no ambition to be ostracized by them. I would rather work unpaid overtime and have good relations with my coworkers than not work that overtime and be an outcast. When we get reamed out for having too much overtime, we got yelled at as a section, rather than individually, so if I'm the only one posting "extra" overtime, it boils down to the same problem.
 
But wouldn't it be better if nobody was doing unpaid overtime? It's that easy. Japanese laborers say no.
 
But wouldn't it be better if nobody was doing unpaid overtime? It's that easy. Japanese laborers say no.
Unfortunately it is not as cut and dry as you make it seem.

The ability to have workers finish their work within the designated time is always desirable ,but not always possible. I am sure you know that most Japanese companies are obliged to take care of their employees and rather than fire them for their inefficiencies, they will keep them hired as long as they get the work done no matter if it takes them past there scheduled work hours.

You say it is a management problem, but it is far more complex than that. This involves issues from within the employment system and going as far as Japanese culture in itself.

Have you been in management in a typical Japanese company?



Let's say you have a team of 5 guys who typically work 2 hours of overtime per night. That means you have (10*5*5) 250 hours of work per week, but management is only paying for (8*5*5) 200 hours of labor.

If the workers are inefficient, lazy, or otherwise problematic, then this problem should be addressed of course.

On the other hand, if it's just too much work, then why not turn it into a team of 6 guys who can do (8*5*6) 240 hours of work per week. Now the gap is only 10 hours, and if you split that between 6 guys and 5 days, (10/6/5), that's only 0.3 hours of overtime. Huge improvement over the 2 hours we had before.

Or you look at it from the system side. Maybe these 2 hours are caused by inefficiencies in the way business is conducted. The computers are too old, the reporting style is too long, there is too much waiting for the boss to stamp a document, etc. etc.

The list goes on. Laborers who stand up for proper payroll accounting are also standing up to improving the company. Otherwise they are just enabling the problem.

What if the problem is due to the workers inefficiency? Have you factored that into your calculation? How do you propose to deal with inefficiencies? Fire them? Tell them to pick up the pace or else?

Have you ever tried to fire an employee here in Japan? Do you know what it involves?
And I am not just talking about the administrative side of things, but the effect it will have on your other employees.
 
What if the problem is due to the workers inefficiency? Have you factored that into your calculation? How do you propose to deal with inefficiencies? Fire them? Tell them to pick up the pace or else?

I think this is a silly question. The answer is yes, one or the other. If a worker is so inefficient that they have to work twice the expected time to get their work done, then it is far more merciful to fire them and force them to get a job they can do competently, or reduce their salary and their hours, rather than working them to the point they have no time to live.

However, I'm pretty sure worker efficiency is a very small part of this overtime issue. I believe the main part of it is the company not having enough money to employ the right number of people, and, like so many things in Japan, simply a case of the haves milking the have-nots for as much as they can.
 
I think this is a silly question. The answer is yes, one or the other. If a worker is so inefficient that they have to work twice the expected time to get their work done, then it is far more merciful to fire them and force them to get a job they can do competently, or reduce their salary and their hours, rather than working them to the point they have no time to live.
However, I'm pretty sure worker efficiency is a very small part of this overtime issue. I believe the main part of it is the company not having enough money to employ the right number of people, and, like so many things in Japan, simply a case of the haves milking the have-nots for as much as they can.

On the contrary, it is a big issue. And as I said before it is not as simple as firing them so they can do a different job more suited to them. Even moving them to another part of the company can land you in hot water if it does not fit the original job description. (Even if they are receiving the same amount of money)

Sure there are companies they milk their workers for all they have , but the majority of companies in today's climate will offer a certain amount of overtime hours. As I said before, overtime can be also a cultural based, eg, not going home before the boss even when they really have no work to do. I thought for sure those of you who have been here as long as you have would already know this?
 
On the contrary, it is a big issue. And as I said before it is not as simple as firing them so they can do a different job more suited to them. Even moving them to another part of the company can land you in hot water if it does not fit the original job description. (Even if they are receiving the same amount of money)
Yes, I realize it's not that simple because there are some of those good ole' rules in place to prevent it, but it should be that simple. Companies are doing a disservice to their employees by forcing them to do this many hours.

As I said before, overtime can be also a cultural based, eg, not going home before the boss even when they really have no work to do. I thought for sure those of you who have been here as long as you have would already know this?

Yes, I am aware there are a lot of cultural factors involved here, but it's still messed up. D**king around at the office after hours to give your coworkers and boss moral support, while your family sits at home without you, is putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.
 
The ability to have workers finish their work within the designated time is always desirable ,but not always possible. I am sure you know that most Japanese companies are obliged to take care of their employees and rather than fire them for their inefficiencies, they will keep them hired as long as they get the work done no matter if it takes them past there scheduled work hours.

You're taking a very selectable approach to this. You seem to think it's okay to force workers to labor for unpaid hours (which is illegal), but you support the labor laws in how they refer to letting employees go. Why is it okay to force unpaid labor (a crime of the company), but you do support that companies should not be allowed to let employees go? Seems a bit contradictory.

If you read over my posts, then you'll see that I addressed the idea of competency. If management is not dealing with this, then that is a problem. They should of course be training and coaching their staff to perform well within the hours of labor that they designate. If not, they will end up suffering in the long run.

What I am saying is that the act of unpaid overtime (illegal I will remind you again), is a technique used by management (and enabled by tacit laborers) to avoid the issue of optimizing systems or employee performance in exchange for mediocre performance extended over work hours that are far too long.

If laborers, or the government at the least, held companies responsible for this, then management would be compelled to either see that its employees could perform the tasks within the legal working hours (or risk having to take on the burden of extra costs through overtime payments), or they would modify the revenue streams to accommodate 40-hour weeks.

The former would work out for everybody. Employees would be better trained and working less. That means happy people, happy families, happy communities, and happy companies.

The later would likely decrease revenue. But on the other hand, the potential loss in profits would only be measurable against the illegally gained profit numbers of the past, so I would say they hold little value.

It's all about companies putting things in scope and being realistic. People cry out about over deforestation, use of natural resources, etc. These are tools for companies to pull in profits. The same goes for laborers, but nobody seems to complain when they are sucked dry--at least not in Japan.
 
But wouldn't it be better if nobody was doing unpaid overtime? It's that easy. Japanese laborers say no.

I have some news for you, Pollyanna. If the people in my industry got paid for all the work we do, the price of goods would be so high nobody could afford to live here.
 
You're taking a very selectable approach to this. You seem to think it's okay to force workers to labor for unpaid hours (which is illegal), but you support the labor laws in how they refer to letting employees go. Why is it okay to force unpaid labor (a crime of the company), but you do support that companies should not be allowed to let employees go? Seems a bit contradictory.
You see it as contradictory, but I see it as Japanese companies taking the less of two evils.

If you read over my posts, then you'll see that I addressed the idea of competency. If management is not dealing with this, then that is a problem. They should of course be training and coaching their staff to perform well within the hours of labor that they designate. If not, they will end up suffering in the long run.
You obviously have not been in a managerial position in Japan then? Do you honestly believe that training and skill up programs will bring everyone up to the same level? Unfortunately we don't live in that world you speak of. Some people with all the training in the world will still not be able to become efficient enough to eliminate all overtime. So how do you deal with them? Fire them for incompetence?

What I am saying is that the act of unpaid overtime (illegal I will remind you again), is a technique used by management (and enabled by tacit laborers) to avoid the issue of optimizing systems or employee performance in exchange for mediocre performance extended over work hours that are far too long.
Yes, if it was actually the company promoting unpaid overtime, something which is not as prevalent as you are making it seem. Most times, as I have said before is due to the workers choice to stay back and do more work. Do you honestly believe that companies want to promote inefficient workers? You certainly seem to be making that assumption.

If laborers, or the government at the least, held companies responsible for this, then management would be compelled to either see that its employees could perform the tasks within the legal working hours (or risk having to take on the burden of extra costs through overtime payments), or they would modify the revenue streams to accommodate 40-hour weeks.
They do hold them responsible. What makes you think they don't?

The former would work out for everybody. Employees would be better trained and working less. That means happy people, happy families, happy communities, and happy companies.

The later would likely decrease revenue. But on the other hand, the potential loss in profits would only be measurable against the illegally gained profit numbers of the past, so I would say they hold little value.
But you are saying that with training and skill up programs that production would not decrease, which is it?
 
My average workday is from 14 to 16 hours long. My regular workweek is six days. It is not uncommon for my workday to be 24 hours long. It is not uncommon for me to be at work two or three days solid.

I get no overtime pay. My situation is not unusual.

See why I so often say here that your typical Western foreigner absolutely will not work under the same conditions and for the same pay that Japanese workers will?

Orochi,

Your grasp of pie-in-the-sky theory is great, but have you ever worked in the Japanese labor force? And by that, I mean the blue collar grunt labor force.

Sure, it's "illegal" for my company to pay the way they do. But if you think Japanese laborers are ever going to just rise up and stand for their rights, you're either nuts or have no experience of being part of an environment of Japanese labor. It ain't gonna happen.
 
Ah the sound of someone learning how the real world (not just Japan) works.

1. Have you ever worked over house in Japan.
Yes.
2. Did you get paid for those over hours?
No.
3. Did you get paid the basic hourly wage for that or more.
I have never worked an "hourly" job in Japan.
4. Do you think it's alright to ask for paid overtime, or do you think it's just part of the job.
And here's the kicker. I suspect, since you aren't punching a clock or turning in a time card, that you are an exempt employee. Exempt was originally intended to mean that you had enough experience and autonomy in your job to get your work done in 40 hours. In reality it has come to mean you are exempt from overtime. If you attempt to claim overtime as an exempt employee expect your boss to ask why you aren't being more productive with your time, after all as an exempt employee you are supposed to be managing your time more productively. If you want to claim you can't get your work done in 8 hours be prepared to have it reflected on your next performance review and not in a favorable light if they wait till your next performance review and don't give you 40+ hours a week of free time to fill.
5. Do you think working 60 hours a week would be more productive than 40 hours a week?
Define more productive? See some of my work stories below.
So, a few selective experiences of mine working in a Japanese office.


"productivity"
The work day started at 8am and supposedly ended at 5pm. From 8am-11am it was typical for most of the employees to be standing by the coffee machine chatting or reading a newspaper. From 11-12 some work generally got done. From 12-1 we all went down to the office cafe for lunch. From 1-2 or 3 people typically gossiped and hung out at the coffee machine. From 2/3-whenever the boss left people might work although about 6pm books and newspapers came out again. In other words while they might have been in the office for 60+ hours they weren't doing 40 hours of work.

"appearance of effort"
The group and I spent about a week preparing an abstract for a paper we wanted to present at a conference. I turned it in about a month before the deadline. I got it back with a note saying I hadn't put enough effort into the abstract. One of my group members asked why I'd turned it in early, I turned in the exact same abstract the day before it needed to be submitted and got it back approved with a note telling me how much better my effort had been this time.

"gender roles"
I had 2 female PhD's in my group. Both were married with kids and incredibly intelligent and competent. We also had a secretary who's job included making coffee for meetings. I can't count the number of times my boss would tell one of those 2 women to go make coffee during a meeting. I can count the number of times he asked one of the men to do the same job - 0. I also have no idea why he didn't just stick his head out the door and ask the secretary to make the coffee since it was part of her job.

"productivity part deux"
One of the guys in my group normally showed up around 11am. It was really obvious when he showed up because rain or shine he always rode his scooter in to work meaning he often showed up looking like he'd just gotten out of the shower. The good thing being I'm pretty sure that was the only shower he'd had most weeks. I'm fat, this guy was north of me, somewhere between Sumo fat and can't get through the door fat. He also snored. Loudly. Typically from 2-4pm after lunch and coffee. He was also probably the most productive member of the group, he worked till 2-3am every morning, and he liked to be in the lab by himself rather than having to share tool time/etc. with the rest of us. Guy got TONS of stuff done, probably more than any other 2 people in the office, so we dealt with his idiosyncrasies because he wasn't a bad guy he just worked to his own schedule and was a "unique" sort of snowflake. Ah the talks I had with my boss about him...

"closing time"
Unless we had a visitor or he had a meeting somewhere else my boss never left before 7pm. I will say that my boss was legitimately productive and busy from the time he arrived until he went home. Noone else in the office left until the boss had packed up and opened the door. The guy in the desk across from me spent 4 years improving his english by reading Harry Potter from 5-7pm every day. Noone even bothered to hide what they were doing, reading newspapers, screwing around on personal websites that IT hadn't blocked yet, etc from the time they got done until the boss left. The funny thing is as soon as I left the magic seal had been broken and everyone else could leave. Since I didn't feel any stigma about leaving before the boss did it wasn't unusual for coworkers who had an appointment or something they wanted to do in the evening to come ask me if I was going to leave soon. Asking them why they didn't just leave on their own got me a lot of blank stares...
 
Something's wrong with the Internet, so I thought I should reply.

Understandable that what I'm saying may be misconstrued as Pollyanna-talk or pie-in-the-sky talk, but don't be so easily deceived. There's a lot of room for improvement on things, and it takes some out-of-the-box thinking on how to achieve that. It might not be easy, and it might take some time, but if things need to change, then they should.
 
That hotel suffers from its treatment of employees, I can tell you that. The turnaround was tremendous.
It was a job that I did, initially hoping to make a career of, but after find out what the company was like, I took the next good offer I could find. A lot of people were the same.
More people need to do just that. If a job treats its employees poorly, and the workers are afraid to speak up for their own rights, they either join a union and let it fight things out, or they leave.

Ideally, all workers would be in a union which is strong enough to negotiate for them, but realistically, this does not always/usually happen. One can be an activist and try coaxing coworkers to stand up for their rights alone, but it's a very hard thing to do. Join a union (or contact the labor standards office), or leave with some polite but firm words to the boss about his poor treatment. Let your coworkers know why you leave, and try to let others interested in the vacancies know, too. (This last point happens a lot in the teaching world.)
 
Good point, Glenski. It all starts with the small acts of a few people. The problem with Japan is that the norm is so skewed that it does not promote any increase in performance from either the laborers or the management. If either would tip a bit and try to move towards improving things, it might help get things moving in a good direction.
 
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