Why is this forum so slow?

[JonnyAndDeeDee]

Hi everyone.

Firstly, I would like to say that I was very happy to stumble across this forum. I have been hoping to find a japan related forum, and I thought I had hit the jackpot with this place. Of course, there are other japan related forums but the ones I have come across either have very strict moderation or are just too quiet to bother with.

After a couple of weeks here, I feel this place is obviously in the latter. It's very quiet here! I check on my comments a few days after posting and my reply is STILL at the top of the page - nobody has responded!

I have also noticed that many of the threads are started years and years ago and are STILL at the top of the page!!

Why is this??

Well, one reason is there are many people who, like me, like to have a response to their comments, and when there aren't, they simply move on never to return.

Another reason is the way the site is layed out. Why so many sub forums???? It really is ridiculous. If I go to the news section there are sub forums for US bases, whaling, etc. etc. - but if I do actually click on one of these sub forums, most of the stories are very old! Some even going back to 2004!!
This should be reason enough to drop all of the sub forums and merge them into one busier forum, where the punters get to see some interaction between posters on a regular basis - not every six months or so!

It would make sense to have such sub forums IF this forum was MUCH busier, but you guys are just shooting yourselves in the foot by keeping it this way with the amount of traffic you presently have.

Am I missing something here? Did this place used to be busy? Is that why it is set up as such? If so, it's not busy any more and it makes no sense to have so many 'dead' sub forums.

If it gas never been busy, then I am just presuming that whoever set the forum up, did it with heavy traffic in mind. Well, there is no heavy traffic here and there never will be if people click on your sub forums and are greeted by threads from 2004!!

The entire forum needs to be layed out again from the start if you ask me!!

This is meant to be constructive critisism, so I apologise if I offended anybody.

Just trying to help..

 

[Half-n-Half]

I actually agree with you about there being a lot of sub-forums. The forum isn't nearly as busy as it has been in years past for a couple reasons. One, people have grown tired and moved on. Two, many of the more traditional things to discuss about Japan (it's culture, travel spots, etc) have already been beaten to death, so the only thing left are current events or serious discussions.

The "New Posts" button has become my friend as of late. Really lets me keep tabs on the forum.

 

[Davey]

Thanks for the feedback, it's always good to get that.

I agree with the sub-forums as well, and I will discuss it with the other staff members. It used to be a lot bussier here... and the loss of content due to the split up of the forum did harm the amount of new members as well.
Any more feedback would be much appreciated

 

[thomas]

Thanks for the feedback, I totally agree to streamlining the forum structure.

Please keep it coming!

 

[Mike Cash]

Part of the problem may very well be what I protested at the time as "the further Balkanization of JREF" with all the splits into various subforums, but I don't think that alone is sufficient to account for it.

I suspect that it is is more likely due to the novelty of internet forums having worn off for many people who are in a position to actually be helpful. With a few exceptions, most of the people who have extensive experience living or working in Japan and are thus capable of delivered informed opinions have left us entirely or have severely curtailed their involvement. We are left with a lot of teenybopper chatterboxes rattling on and on with stupid "games" that any self-respecting seven year old would be embarrassed to have at his birthday party.

After a while, you get tired of answering the same question for the thousandth time. Especially when you know the answer doesn't really matter a hill of beans to anybody, including the person who asked it. And you get tired of wading through the moronic "games" cluttering up the topic list searching for some topic which is actually worth looking at and perhaps participating in. It reaches a tipping point where it is just no longer worth the time and bother......"Lessee.......game, game, game, tattoo request, game, game, tattoo request, game, IRC translation request, Hezam's usual crap, game, game, game." I am a 45 year old man who works an average of 14 hours a day, six days a week. I have neither the time nor the inclination to wade through that sort of stuff. God only knows how much worse it would be if I didn't filter the music and anime sections out. For a while there it was, "China, China, game, game, China, China, China, China, game, China". Thank God those days are gone.

And if we want to be totally up front and honest about it, we may as well pick the scab off the wound and face the fact that Maciamo came very close to single-handedly killing the place a few years ago and we have yet to come near recovering from it. As I said, I have very little time and I made the decision to spend it in places that bring me a little peace, enjoyment, and personal satisfaction. That once-upon-a-time was JREF and might very well be JREF again, but not as things currently stand. The threads worth the time and effort of posting are few and far between. The people of similar age/experience with whom I can identify are largely gone, and the place has been taken over by people of an age/background that in real life I would certainly be civil towards but with whom it would be mutually difficult to find something in common to talk about. In real life our interaction would be short, shallow, and soon dropped to our mutual relief. It is unrealistic to think that we would fare much better online.

 

[JonnyAndDeeDee]

One, people have grown tired and moved on. Two, many of the more traditional things to discuss about Japan (it's culture, travel spots, etc) have already been beaten to death, so the only thing left are current events or serious discussions..

sorry, but I dissagree that these are defining factors.
1. If things are ineresting, people will keep coming back. Check out this Thailand related forum: teakdoor.com

It began 5 or 6 years ago and is still going from strength to strength. Alot of this is due to the user friendly lay out IMHO. Most posters are middle aged and finding new topics doesn't seem to be a problem.
2. There are always new things to talk about, but I agree, the 'newbie' questions soon become boring and tiresome, but that is why you gave 'newbie' sections with 'frequently asked questions being a sub forum. If newbies arrive, politely ask them to read the FAQs in the newbie section before they ask further questions. The problem is, many of the 'old' questions are still 'new' for newbies. I know it can be annoying, so I believe having a FAQs sub forum in a 'newbie indroduce yourself forum would save you guys a lot of work.

 

[JonnyAndDeeDee]

Errmm..... I just posted a reply, but I hadn't finished it and tried to edit it straight away. It seems my posting rights have been downgraded and a moderator has to check my posts now before they are allowed

not good guys..

^ why did this post show up and my last one didn't?

I posted quite a long reply to the replies on this thread but it didnt show up ..

 

[Half-n-Half]

sorry, but I dissagree that these are defining factors.
1. If things are ineresting, people will keep coming back. Check out this Thailand related forum: teakdoor.com
It began 5 or 6 years ago and is still going from strength to strength. Alot of this is due to the user friendly lay out IMHO. Most posters are middle aged and finding new topics doesn't seem to be a problem.
2. There are always new things to talk about, but I agree, the 'newbie' questions soon become boring and tiresome, but that is why you gave 'newbie' sections with 'frequently asked questions being a sub forum. If newbies arrive, politely ask them to read the FAQs in the newbie section before they ask further questions. The problem is, many of the 'old' questions are still 'new' for newbies. I know it can be annoying, so I believe having a FAQs sub forum in a 'newbie indroduce yourself forum would save you guys a lot of work.

Right, but it's hard for things to remain interesting if the forum has been around for years and just about anything interesting has been beaten to death. Although, I do agree that if we stream line the forum more it will attract and keep more visitors. A "newbie" section would be nice, but it wouldn't really generate new posts or content. I believe there already is an introduction forum or thread.

Really, I wouldn't be opposed to deleting all the sub-forums and just merging them into their parent forums (All Things Japanese, Japanese News & Hot Topics, etc.).

 

[Nuala]

Part of the problem may very well be what I protested at the time as "the further Balkanization of JREF" with all the splits into various subforums, but I don't think that alone is sufficient to account for it.

I suspect that it is is more likely due to the novelty of internet forums having worn off for many people who are in a position to actually be helpful. With a few exceptions, most of the people who have extensive experience living or working in Japan and are thus capable of delivered informed opinions have left us entirely or have severely curtailed their involvement. We are left with a lot of teenybopper chatterboxes rattling on and on with stupid "games" that any self-respecting seven year old would be embarrassed to have at his birthday party.

After a while, you get tired of answering the same question for the thousandth time. Especially when you know the answer doesn't really matter a hill of beans to anybody, including the person who asked it. And you get tired of wading through the moronic "games" cluttering up the topic list searching for some topic which is actually worth looking at and perhaps participating in. It reaches a tipping point where it is just no longer worth the time and bother......"Lessee.......game, game, game, tattoo request, game, game, tattoo request, game, IRC translation request, Hezam's usual crap, game, game, game." I am a 45 year old man who works an average of 14 hours a day, six days a week. I have neither the time nor the inclination to wade through that sort of stuff. God only knows how much worse it would be if I didn't filter the music and anime sections out. For a while there it was, "China, China, game, game, China, China, China, China, game, China". Thank God those days are gone.

And if we want to be totally up front and honest about it, we may as well pick the scab off the wound and face the fact that Maciamo came very close to single-handedly killing the place a few years ago and we have yet to come near recovering from it. As I said, I have very little time and I made the decision to spend it in places that bring me a little peace, enjoyment, and personal satisfaction. That once-upon-a-time was JREF and might very well be JREF again, but not as things currently stand. The threads worth the time and effort of posting are few and far between. The people of similar age/experience with whom I can identify are largely gone, and the place has been taken over by people of an age/background that in real life I would certainly be civil towards but with whom it would be mutually difficult to find something in common to talk about. In real life our interaction would be short, shallow, and soon dropped to our mutual relief. It is unrealistic to think that we would fare much better online.

I look at the forums dedicated to Japanese topics, and I'm afraid I have to agree with you. Some of the topics are so old that it's actually sorta depressing.

Mike Cash: You should post some stories of your experiences in Japan. Be the apart of the change, post here. Other than that, I've been trying to contribute to the forums as much as possible since I've come back. Some threads I post are hits, some aren't, but I'm trying! I'm not seeing much from you though, and that's sad. I think you have a lot to say on your experiences in Japan, it's just that I'm not seeing them posted anywhere lately.

 

[thomas]

Thanks again for all the feedback, we do appreciate it! Getting rid of the subfora will be the next step we take.

It seems my posting rights have been downgraded and a moderator has to check my posts now before they are allowed
not good guys..

^ why did this post show up and my last one didn't?
I posted quite a long reply to the replies on this thread but it didnt show up ..

Your posting rights have not been downgraded. If you had violated any of our forum rules you'd have been warned and contacted. I can see a long reply of yours and a merged double-post.

 

[noyhauser]

Part of the problem may very well be what I protested at the time as "the further Balkanization of JREF" with all the splits into various subforums, but I don't think that alone is sufficient to account for it.

I suspect that it is is more likely due to the novelty of internet forums having worn off for many people who are in a position to actually be helpful. With a few exceptions, most of the people who have extensive experience living or working in Japan and are thus capable of delivered informed opinions have left us entirely or have severely curtailed their involvement. We are left with a lot of teenybopper chatterboxes rattling on and on with stupid "games" that any self-respecting seven year old would be embarrassed to have at his birthday party.

After a while, you get tired of answering the same question for the thousandth time. Especially when you know the answer doesn't really matter a hill of beans to anybody, including the person who asked it. And you get tired of wading through the moronic "games" cluttering up the topic list searching for some topic which is actually worth looking at and perhaps participating in. It reaches a tipping point where it is just no longer worth the time and bother......"Lessee.......game, game, game, tattoo request, game, game, tattoo request, game, IRC translation request, Hezam's usual crap, game, game, game." I am a 45 year old man who works an average of 14 hours a day, six days a week. I have neither the time nor the inclination to wade through that sort of stuff. God only knows how much worse it would be if I didn't filter the music and anime sections out. For a while there it was, "China, China, game, game, China, China, China, China, game, China". Thank God those days are gone.

And if we want to be totally up front and honest about it, we may as well pick the scab off the wound and face the fact that Maciamo came very close to single-handedly killing the place a few years ago and we have yet to come near recovering from it. As I said, I have very little time and I made the decision to spend it in places that bring me a little peace, enjoyment, and personal satisfaction. That once-upon-a-time was JREF and might very well be JREF again, but not as things currently stand. The threads worth the time and effort of posting are few and far between. The people of similar age/experience with whom I can identify are largely gone, and the place has been taken over by people of an age/background that in real life I would certainly be civil towards but with whom it would be mutually difficult to find something in common to talk about. In real life our interaction would be short, shallow, and soon dropped to our mutual relief. It is unrealistic to think that we would fare much better online.

Hey Mike

I agree with you with most of what you've posted. I think a forum like this will always be a bit of a grab-bag and so long as there is good moderation. These trends will come and go and its tough to manage them.

There are several things that I think would help, based on my experience here and elsewhere. As suggested by the OP, I think pruning down the number of subforums would help. This would give a sense at least that discussions are more active because there are less threads. Moreover it would simplify moderation tasks.

This would be my suggestion, which illustrates how deep this should go:

1. As a broad rule, the fact you have a general "forum" underneath the listings of the subforums is cumbersome. I'd rather see a general discussion sub-forum among the others specialized sub-forums if they exist, rather than having to scroll underneath the subforums. I've never seen such a system used elsewhere, and I think it breaks up the forum's logical structure.
   
2. All things Japanese's subforums should be largely removed, except to add a sub-forum for food. It could also be amalgamated with Practical Japan, which could become a sub-forum for it. Specific stuff about JET could also get a sub-forum inside this super area.
   
3. News and Hot topic's subforums could be amalgamated into one general discussion.
   
4. Japanese Music should become an sub-forum within Japan enternainment. Most of the latter's subforums should be merged into "general discussion" except an "anime and manga subforum (since this area is unique and popular with many individuals outside of Japan."
   
5. Japan on the web should be removed or amalgamated into "all things japanese"
   
6. The Nihongo forum could be made into one group, and its current subforums, placed into one group.
   
7. The member's lounge could be streamlined. Member introductions and community could be subsumed into Chit Chat as subforums. Chit/Chat's other subforums could be removed.

I know that this sounds a bit extreme and some will chafe against it at first. but it would streamline things and make the forum look more active. I think the forum has recovered well since the EU-pedia split, but the vast amount of subforums make it seem deader than it actually is. If there is a need for specific sub-forums, then they can be included later.

However, Probably my most radical suggestion is to really tighten up the moderation policies. Basically we have two posters on here who are constantly injecting highly racist statements into the forum (from very different viewpoints.) They are free to say things that are completely unacceptable on dedicated political forums, why should it be acceptable on JREF? The same thing should have happened when we had the Anti-Japanese bashers two years ago which also saw a major decline in posting inside the political sections. "Polite Warnings" and locking threads haven't worked whatsoever. They scare people away and don't add to the conversation except vitriol and negativity.

I know this sounds draconian, but the previous policies of letting it slide really hasn't worked well. I suggest we try the opposite.

Anyway, thats my two cents... hope they help.

 

[thomas]

I know this sounds draconian, but the previous policies of letting it slide really hasn't worked well. I suggest we try the opposite.

Noyhauser, much appreciated! If someone is guilty of letting things slide it's no one but me. I'm very much in favour of draconian measures and thank you for your detailed suggestions in regard to the structure of subfora.

I don't want to open Pandora's box again, but while we are at criticism: if anyone has layout suggestions, let me know. I thought of implementing larger font sizes and full-page width along with larger and easier top navigation. One issue that stalls our current technical development is the uncertainty of what forum system and CMS to use in the future. vB4 is still immature and unstable, while the competitive software I'm looking at is still in its very early stages of development.

 

[noyhauser]

Ah I think the current software is fine... I can't tell the difference between it and IP board or PhpBB (I had to check the system of the other forums I frequent to see if they also used VB.) If you find the administration side of it onerous, then maybe a switch is in order. Yet, from a user's standpoint one isn't needed, just that a structure could use some work.

 

[Hezam]

Could we see JREF Japanese/English Dictonary in the future ? << off topic ?

 

[Nuala]

Could we see JREF Japanese/English Dictonary in the future ? << off topic ?

Haha, such an endeavor would require several dedicated members to work vigorously for no reward. To be honest, it's not something I see happening anytime soon. The same applies for a sort of Japan Reference wiki, and I'll love to eat my words on this one.

 

[Hezam]

Haha, such an endeavor would require several dedicated members to work vigorously for no reward. To be honest, it's not something I see happening anytime soon. The same applies for a sort of Japan Reference wiki, and I'll love to eat my words on this one.

This is an example for online dictionary but it's Japanese/Arabic dictionary:
了解（日本語 - アラビア語) قاموس ريوكاي ياباني - عربي

this is the webiste :
了解（日本語 - アラビア語) قاموس ريوكاي ياباني - عربي

In the dictionary you can register a membership to add example/words/Kanji/pictures/GIF..etc.
Step by step with dedicated members and native japanese/English speakers it's possible to create a good dictionary in a short time.
You can test your level,and you can report the mistakes...etc.

I think JREF is a big forum with great members who can have their own featured dictionary.

 

[Mike Cash]

Let's just reinvent the wheel as long as we're doing 無駄骨 anyway.

 

[Davey]

I have removed a lot of sub-forums especially in the chit chat section, and the news and hot topic section. Due to the amount of active threads in a forum, I have changed the amount of viewable threads from 25 to 30 threads per page.

We are still in discussion about some of the sections such as the lounge, the Japanese language section, the all things Japanese section and the "china forum" .

Regarding moderation, I will do my best to moderate a more. If you see something that you find offensive, meaningless posting, or spam, please use the

button, or send a message to a moderator.

Another thing I would like to work is on making some FAQ stickies for newbies in certain sections. So if you have some ideas regarding this you can always send me a PM

@Hezam
There are enough websites where you will able to find a Japanese/English Dictonary. I'm sure there are some threads regarding them in the learning Japanese section.



Thanks again for the ideas, if you have any more ideas just shoot them!

 

[Mars Man]

I can kind of feel for your concern, and your (hopefully so) heartfelt hope for a better JREF, JonnyAndDeeDee . It strikes me as kind of possibly being imagined along the lines of a 'recycle' campaign: 'Every one counts ! Here, is where we could say that I would clearly fall into the ranks of those who could (as we peer at this 'thought experiment of a thing') be blamed for helping make JREF slow...by not showing up much at all.

I do have my reasons, I will frankly declare, yet am not sure if such might not be discarded in the near future, or not...who knows ! (meaning that I might chunk such emotional baggage and drop anchors here.) I can only, at this moment, express that I do honestly hope that things can pick up more here, and I will, to the extent that the 'I' in 'me' can join in in helping push 'myself' into action--here, on JREF. Let's see.

 

[Glenn]

Since they're the only ones I post in anymore (for the most part), I can only comment on the Japanese forums. Here's what I suggest:

Get rid of all the subforums, i.e., Kanji Learning, Grammar & Sentences, Textbooks, tests and language schools. Take the 一般的なフォーラム and make it a subforum of the Learning Japanese forum, and keep 日本語の勉強 as a subforum of the Learning Japanese forum. Having done this, the name may have to change from Learning Japanese to something more like Japanese Language Forum, but that's not such a big deal, I think.

Next, move the 英語勉強フォーラム - Learning English forum somewhere else, or get rid of it. It's almost never used, and the last thread posted in there had nothing to do with learning English.

I never understood the separateHonestlyJapanese language and then grammar and sentences. I've been here, sirs, and I don't really see the difference between the two. And then there's the Kanji learning subforum, which only ever seems to get used for tattoo translations. I can only remember one thread that was relevant to studying that ascent, and it took all two sentences to answer (this one: what's the difference?.)

And to echo one of Mike's points: I don't know what the deal is, but recently we've gotten a rash of questions about the multiple readings of kanji in a few days' time. I've answered this question a few times, more recently pointing people to posts I'd made on the topic a while ago (namely this one and this one), but lately, I've just been wanting to say "look at Wikipedia" or "get a book". I mean, these are basic questions, and I learned by reading in my books, so I have a hard time with them getting asked over and over again, particularly when it's 3 times in 2 days.

Then there are the questions about んだ/のだ, what's the difference between は and が, etc. At least eeky showed up and started asking interesting and specific questions that can lead to interesting and enlightening discussions. Pretty much everyone else wants you to translate something for them (sometimes under the guise of helping them do it, at that).
I guess that's enough of my venting, but I really wonder just why it is that this forum gets so many of the types that Mike described, while a similar forum on China has much more mature people and discussions (that are usually much more interesting). Maybe it's because of the material produced by the respective cultures, with Japan having the younger anime/manga market, being the world's leading producer of them, and China not really being all that open to the west yet (or at least they aren't exporting their pop culture en masse).

[Edit] Sorry, I forgot that 一般的なフォーラム had subforums (自己紹介, 文化交流, and 国際結婚について). Those can all be done away with and put under 一般的なフォーラム. Sadly, that forum hardly ever gets used at all, much less the separate subforums of it.

 

[Glenn]

Also, I don't know if this has actually turned anyone away, but it's a major annoyance: line breaks disappearing on edit and preview. I put them there for a reason the first time; I don't want to have to memorize all the line breaks in the post so that I can have it look like I wanted it to when I was typing it up should I decide to preview or edit it. It's highly likely that I'm going to be changing something anyway, I'd rather not have to reset the post to how I had it and then make whatever changes I feel are necessary.

And a Japanese-language-specific thing that drives me crazy: the insertion of a half-width space every 50 half-width characters. We end up with so much 文字化け because of this that I've become pretty decent at guessing what word was intended in a post that turned into garbled trash, and I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing. Of course, there are times when I want to be sure, or times when I just couldn't guess it, and the only way to see what it was is to hit the "quote" button, and that's a bit much just to see something that should have displayed properly in the first place. This is something I've never seen anywhere else that I can recall, and I have no idea why we have this "feature".

 

[Glenn]

You're probably getting sick of me, but I just thought of another one: get rid of the China forum. It has nothing directly to do with Japan, and no one ever uses it. If anyone wanted to discuss China there are plenty of better places to do it, in particular the China forum I mentioned above: Chinese-forums.com.

Actually, I think that's just an overall well-run forum, and there are things we could adopt and adapt over here to help liven things up, particularly the "signese" blog posts that invite people to answer questions about the language on actual signs that people have taken pictures of (sample). That's a bit of an undertaking, though. I'm not sure who would have the inclination to a) take the pictures, b) upload them to the forum, and c) come up with specific questions about them for people to answer and test their language skills on.

But more than that, I think getting rid of the China forum here would be a good step. OK, I think I'm done now.

 

[AJBryant]

i wouldn't mind losing all the Middle Eastern stuff.

Maybe it's because I'm partly Lebanese, but if I want Arabic or ME stuff, I know where to go -- and it's not a Japanese forum.

 

[thomas]

Glenn, thank you for your input, it is much appreciated!

Your suggestions in re. to the Japanese language section make a lot of sense and will be implemented shortly, unless the other team members disapprove.

As for the editting issue: I have been unable to find the culprit, we do not experience these problems on our forum at tokyocycle.com. I have removed all unnecessary JS code, but the problem persists.


DB and I were discussing the fate of the China section earlier this week. Browsing the subforum I came to realise that it actually holds a lot of threads of general interest, largely owing to you, Glenn. So most likely we will move the threads worth keeping to another section ("Serious Discussions" perhaps) and delete the rest.

Anthony, thanks to you, too. There hasn't been a lot of ME stuff lately, so I see no need to prune those threads at the moment.

 

[Hezam]

i wouldn't mind losing all the Middle Eastern stuff.

Like what ?

Maybe it's because I'm partly Lebanese, but if I want Arabic or ME stuff, I know where to go -- and it's not a Japanese forum.

I think it's good to share your culture & tradnations with other people if they don't mind,unless Admin (thomas or DB) said NO i think it's ok !!