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bossel said:Senseiman's explanation comes close. Looked it up in an etymology dictionary:
"1577, via Port. Japao, Du. Japan, acquired in Malacca from Malay Japang, from Chinese jih pun "sunrise" (equivalent of Japanese Nippon), from jih "sun" + pun "origin." Earliest form in Europe was Marco Polo's Chipangu."
@Brooker:
I don't think it's necessarily arrogance. The 1st people you meet in a newly discovered part of the world tell you "The land over there, that's blabla" & so blabla becomes the name in your language. Anyway, even if you "rename" country, I don't see much of a problem. If the original name is hard to pronounce for speakers of a language, why bother, why not transform it into something easier?
I see your point, but the problem is: what is the original? Once you have a name for a country (no matter where it comes from), it tends to stick. When a country changes its official name, should all other languages change the name as well? Too complicated, usually.Brooker said:It just bothers me when the translated name is so different from the original name that it's hard to tell it's even the same place. They should at least make an attempt.
Horror for you, maybe, but I even don't call your country "America". To me this is the name of the continent, while your country is the USA (but that's just me, many Germans go the easy way).Germany = Deutchland. This one has got to be the worst. I mean, come on, not even close.
There are many others that are shocking as well, I just can't think at the moment. I wouldn't like it if America was pronounced "Trixevil" in some other language. It's just too damned confusing!
Anyway, even if they try to be close to the original it would most often be pronounced in a way the inhabitants of that particular country wouldn't recognize it (Doitsu for Deutschland, well...).
The Japanese word for England is "Igirisu", which doesn't even come close.
Horror for you, maybe, but I even don't call your country "America". To me this is the name of the continent, while your country is the USA (but that's just me, many Germans go the easy way).
Brooker said:bossel wrote....
But at least it's obvious that the Japanese were making an attempt at pronouncing "Deutchland" the original way. But "GERMANY"? That pronunciation is completely out of left field.
Brooker said:Once again, that's the best pronunciation the Japanese could come up with using their alphabet and it's still obvious that they were making an effort to pronounce "England".
Normally it's called "US" or "USA" here. Americans (from the US) are called "Ami" (or "Amis" in plural).bossel said:Horror for you, maybe, but I even don't call your country "America". To me this is the name of the continent, while your country is the USA (but that's just me, many Germans go the easy way).
Actually, "Deutsch" derives from the Teutonic tribe, whose name in turn derives from "teut-", meaning people.bossel said:Germany is actually a nice example to show where these names come from. Deutschland itself derives from the old German word for the "language of the people" ("theodisk", or something like that). In many other languages the country is named after some Germanic tribe (or the Germans in general). Some examples:
Slavic languages - Niemcy / Německo (from the Slavic word for "mute")
Spanish/French - Alemania / Allemagne (after a Germanic tribe)
Finnish/Estnian - Saksa (German-ic state & tribe)
English/Italian - Germany / Germania (from Latin "Germania")
Hungarian - Nテゥmetorszテ。g (from Slavic)
Maybe that's true in the Ruhr area, but generally "Ami" is slang or even derogatory.Lina Inverse said:Normally it's called "US" or "USA" here. Americans (from the US) are called "Ami" (or "Amis" in plural).
Actually, nope!Actually, "Deutsch" derives from the Teutonic tribe, whose name in turn derives from "teut-", meaning people. [...]
English/Italian - Germany / Germania derives from the Germanic tribe (who was the first to have contact with the Romans, hence the Latin name "Germania")
Italian - "Tedesco" (German) also derives from the Teutonic tribe.
Scandinavian "Tysk" derives from the Teutonic tribe as well.
Well, there may be an effort involved, but is the result recognizable? Not really.Brooker said:But at least it's obvious that the Japanese were making an attempt at pronouncing "Deutchland" the original way. But "GERMANY"? That pronunciation is completely out of left field.
smig said:In fact, it really becomes downright funny. The Yucatan peninsula in Central America is called this because when the Spanish landed, they grabbed the first poor mug they found and asked him (naturally assuming he spoke Spanish, of course - love that imperialist conceit) what this place was called, he replied (in the native dialect) Yucatan - which means "i don't understand"
Interesting point. Didn't think of that before, but now...Brooker said:Here's a strange twist on this whole interesting debate. What's up with locals who mispronounce the name of their own city. For example, people from New Orleans often pronounce it "Norlens". You could chalk that up to being a kind of slang, but, k'mon they didn't even manage to pronounce the word "new". How about people from Toronto who often say "Trono"? In Seattle, we say "See-aa-dle," which is pretty close I guess. Crazy.
Brooker said:That's freakin' hilarious!
@rakuten....
Thanks for the info. But MAN, I'm confused.
Here's a strange twist on this whole interesting debate. What's up with locals who mispronounce the name of their own city. For example, people from New Orleans often pronounce it "Norlens". You could chalk that up to being a kind of slang, but, k'mon they didn't even manage to pronounce the word "new". How about people from Toronto who often say "Trono"? In Seattle, we say "See-aa-dle," which is pretty close I guess. Crazy.
december said:It's not that locals are mispronouncing the name of their city - they're just speaking in local dialect. It's not like they do it consciously
No matter what state you go to, the dialect and pronounciation of words will be a little different.
Brooker said:But it is possible to mispronounce something using a local dialect. In the example of "New Orleans" the word "new" in "Norlens" is simply represented by an "n" sound. They will argue to the death that "N-e-w O-r-l-e-a-n-s" is not the correct way to pronounce the name of their city.
Brooker said:I guess the question is....
Is there a CORRECT way of pronouncing place names (or words, for that matter)?
Brooker said:If there is in deed a correct way of pronouncing the name of something, I would say that "Nihon" is the only correct way to refer to what we know as being Japan.
Brooker said:If there is no correct way, then call it whatever the hell you want. As long as other people are somehow able to understand what you're referring to, then it's valid. It seems this is the technique used by the world and I've always thought that was a little strange.
Brooker said:But my (non-American) coworkers in Japan used to always argue about what was the correct way of saying things in English (the American way, the Aussie way, the British way, etc.) which I always thought was silly because I don't think there really is a RIGHT WAY. We've all altered the language and made it our own.
Brooker said:However, I do think that people should at least make an attempt to pronounce place names the original way. But the system is the way it is so I'm not going to go around saying Nihon and pronouncing "karaoke" the Japanese way even though I know I'm saying it wrong when I say it to my American friends.
Brooker said:I wouldn't like it if America was pronounced "Trixevil" in some other language. It's just too damned confusing!