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Views on suicide in today's Japan

Azomyr

先輩
18 Feb 2013
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Hello. In Japanese history, suicide has been seen sometimes as a positive solution at certain special situations. Not only the samurai and the 20th-century Japanese soldiers commited suicide for honor or patriotic altruism. In pre-Modern times there existed in Japan an elaborated Buddhist practice among some monks of self-mummification. These monks were named Sokushinbutsu (窶伉ヲツ身窶「ツァ) and as an ascetic method poisoned themselves and meditate to death inside a stone tomb to achieve nirvana; fact that was corroborated if the corpse became a mummy.

My question is, do nowadays Japanese see suicide more positively than in Western countries? Do Japanese understand suicide as a responsible act in some cases?
 
I don't think seeing it more positively is a good way of expressing it. Us "westeners" have been indoctrinated with christianity since more than 1000 years ago whereas the Japanese haven't, thus lacking the concept of suicide being a sin. Wouldn't it be considered to be something that causes problems for others, thus viewed quite negatively?

Just my thoughts, I don't really know much.
 
I've actually been very curious about the topic lately. One of my bigger worries about trying to live in Japan is the lifestyle which some people describe as oppressive. I know that not everyone is a Salaryman, or dead set on being perfect in their schooling/work, but it seems to me that it can be a very hostile place to live if you tire after loads of work.

Us "westeners" have been indoctrinated with christianity since more than 1000 years ago whereas the Japanese haven't, thus lacking the concept of suicide being a sin.

You don't have to be a Christian, or even a Westerner to have a negative attitude towards suicide.
 
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I've actually been very curious about the topic lately. One of my bigger worries about trying to live in Japan is the lifestyle which some people describe as oppressive. I know that not everyone is a Salaryman, or dead set on being perfect in their schooling/work, but it seems to me that it can be a very hostile place to live if you tire after loads of work.

What exactly are people saying is oppressive? Working 12-14 hour days? Or simply just some of the issues that come along with living your life always as a foreigner?

Well as far as working goes that depends more on the company you work for than anything else I think. And as far as work load goes, in Japan working longer hours does not necessarily equate to high work loads or more productivity, so once again it depends on the climate of the company or institution you work for. I had a Japanese friend tell me once that at least 10 hours a day is normal for a "real" job, and another friend who would work 10-6 at their "real" job no exceptions. So once again I think it depends on the company and probably the industry.

In my opinion, long working hours is not the cause of higher rates of suicide or whatever, it is all about having the mental stamina to be able to deal with social pressure to fit into the mold you are expected to.
 
Last summer I took a trip up north and spent three days visiting all of the seven known 即身仏 in Yamagata (which comprise about half of all known to exist in the entire country).

While the practice did result in death, it is a mistake to classify it as "suicide". From the viewpoint of the practitioners, it was an attempt at suspended animation, intending to keep themselves around to serve as assistants to the 弥勒菩薩 whose coming (a zillion jillion years from now) is foretold by the Lotus Sutra (a central text in Japanese Buddhism) in restoring the Law and the teachings of Buddha. You have to understand that they believed the world was in the period of 末法, which were held to be dire times spiritually until the foretold "restoration".

Please don't write off what they did as being merely a bizarre form of suicide.

I'm afraid my mention of the concept in another thread led you to the wrong place. I was referring to the concept that enlightenment is attainable in this lifetime, rather than requiring multiple rebirths, a central difference between the 密教 schools and some of the others.
 
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I've actually been very curious about the topic lately. One of my bigger worries about trying to live in Japan is the lifestyle which some people describe as oppressive. I know that not everyone is a Salaryman, or dead set on being perfect in their schooling/work, but it seems to me that it can be a very hostile place to live if you tire after loads of work.
I was thinking about something similar recently. On the one hand, I like how life seems to be described as peaceful, and most people seem to avoid conflicts, but then there's this side you mentioned. I'm interested how much I'll experience of that as a student there.

You don't have to be a Christian, or even a Westerner to have a negative attitude towards suicide.

That is true. It wasn't my intention to suggest otherwise.
 
Please don't write off what they did as being merely a bizarre form of suicide.

Anything else would require one to be a believer. Since I am not remotely...

And I am sure many Japanese people are not, but yet would still not speak against the belief of those monks.

Japanese people are not knee-jerk against suicide, and attitudes about that form of suicide would show part of Japan's acceptance of the practice. (which is not to say total acceptance, but just that they are more likely to say "meh").

My question is, do nowadays Japanese see suicide more positively than in Western countries?

As long as it does not disrupt their commute! All those train suicides do!

I don't think I would say positive as much as I would say more "neutral". Westerners can be extreme about this subject (and other subjects too) and unnecessarily so.



Do Japanese understand suicide as a responsible act in some cases?

Everybody does! If an America killed himself jumping on a grenade to save his buddies, they would call him a hero. The only real difference is that for Americans (and probably most westerners as well) the situation had better be that stark. The idea of ramming an airplane into a ship in a battle to save one's country is too vague and too indirect and I dare say, not even very probable, and so Americans would not call the heroism. They would call it stupidity. That would be like jumping on a grenade to save your buddies who are....100 yards away! Stupid. But indoctrination can make you that stupid.
 
What exactly are people saying is oppressive? Working 12-14 hour days? Or simply just some of the issues that come along with living your life always as a foreigner?

Well as far as working goes that depends more on the company you work for than anything else I think. And as far as work load goes, in Japan working longer hours does not necessarily equate to high work loads or more productivity, so once again it depends on the climate of the company or institution you work for. I had a Japanese friend tell me once that at least 10 hours a day is normal for a "real" job, and another friend who would work 10-6 at their "real" job no exceptions. So once again I think it depends on the company and probably the industry.

In my opinion, long working hours is not the cause of higher rates of suicide or whatever, it is all about having the mental stamina to be able to deal with social pressure to fit into the mold you are expected to.

I've heard quite a few things. As I understand it, Japan isn't a very accepting society when it comes to not excelling? I've heard and read about Japan being an intense society which is very efficient and tightly-coordinated, but has vicious consequences for those who can't keep up or don't feel like it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'd be happy to certain degree if I was!)

It's not just the jobs, though. Jobs are just probably the aspect which is the most different from America, at least from what I've seen since I've started studying Japan. The high alcoholism rate and images of everyone sleeping on the trains can certainly be shocking when you consider why it is that way.
 
I've heard quite a few things. As I understand it, Japan isn't a very accepting society when it comes to not excelling? I've heard and read about Japan being an intense society which is very efficient and tightly-coordinated, but has vicious consequences for those who can't keep up or don't feel like it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'd be happy to certain degree if I was!)

It's not just the jobs, though. Jobs are just probably the aspect which is the most different from America, at least from what I've seen since I've started studying Japan. The high alcoholism rate and images of everyone sleeping on the trains can certainly be shocking when you consider why it is that way.

I had the same problem before I came here. Then after I got here I found out what a load of horses**t that all is.
 
I've heard quite a few things. As I understand it, Japan isn't a very accepting society when it comes to not excelling? I've heard and read about Japan being an intense society which is very efficient and tightly-coordinated, but has vicious consequences for those who can't keep up or don't feel like it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'd be happy to certain degree if I was!)

It's not just the jobs, though. Jobs are just probably the aspect which is the most different from America, at least from what I've seen since I've started studying Japan. The high alcoholism rate and images of everyone sleeping on the trains can certainly be shocking when you consider why it is that way.

I agree with what Mike said.

And I think if you research alcohol consumption per capita Japan does not really rank all that high compared with some other developed countries. Of course consumption amount and dependency do not have to correlate, but even so, I do not think Japan has a particularly high number of alcoholics compared to other places.
 
I was thinking about something similar recently. On the one hand, I like how life seems to be described as peaceful, and most people seem to avoid conflicts, but then there's this side you mentioned. I'm interested how much I'll experience of that as a student there.

That's what always bothered me about what I've read about Japan. It always seemed like the perfect place to live, but on the flip-side, people go on and on about extremely large amounts of work, alcoholism, racism, xenophobia, high expectations, etc. I was honestly beginning to wonder whether I'd be able to make it in Japan if I chose to live there. It really is confusing to have all of these mixed messages constantly flying around and enveloping Japan from a Western perspective.


I had the same problem before I came here. Then after I got here I found out what a load of horses**t that all is.

That is actually a great bit of news -- thanks! Could you possibly elaborate on which aspects of these issues are true, even partially, if any? I'm curious as to how these sorts of issues could have snowballed into such huge problems in some peoples' eyes.


I agree with what Mike said.

And I think if you research alcohol consumption per capita Japan does not really rank all that high compared with some other developed countries. Of course consumption amount and dependency do not have to correlate, but even so, I do not think Japan has a particularly high number of alcoholics compared to other places.

Ah, that's definitely good to hear. Maybe I just haven't got enough sources for this sort of info! For the record, my recent consuming fascination with Japan started when I read a book called 36 Views of Mount Fuji. I can't be too sure how accurate it is being that it's a bit outdated and only from the perspective of one person, but the themes seem to line up pretty well with other things I've learned about Japan. I try to take everything I hear with a grain of delicious fried rice until I can just go there and experience it for myself.
 
Ah, that's definitely good to hear. Maybe I just haven't got enough sources for this sort of info! For the record, my recent consuming fascination with Japan started when I read a book called 36 Views of Mount Fuji. I can't be too sure how accurate it is being that it's a bit outdated and only from the perspective of one person, but the themes seem to line up pretty well with other things I've learned about Japan. I try to take everything I hear with a grain of delicious fried rice until I can just go there and experience it for myself.

You definitely have to experience it for yourself. As you live there and as your understanding of the language, and in turn, the culture grows, you will begin to be able to take a step back and understand a lot of concepts that have eluded you, and most importantly gain the ability to sift through internet bullsh*t, posted by people who probably did not ever really understand Japanese language or culture, who hold a grudge, or are just spoiled little b*tches who like to make a big deal out of nothing, or nothing that does not happen everywhere else on this planet. And I am not saying that Japan is perfect and does not have it's legitimate down points or criticisms, but it is totally livable for people with the right mindset, and even a place where many foreigners have chosen to live out the rest of their days.
 
Based on the sort of picture I got of Japan before I came here, everybody killed themselves studying, went to exclusive universities, and wore suits and ties to their office jobs. I couldn't square that with the fact that Japan was well-known for producing consumer goods, which meant there must be some blue collar people working to create the stuff somewhere. There must be people who didn't go to college at all, or to a mediocre one, who aren't on the management track. There must be some young people in the country other than Tokyo high school girls.

The problem is selective association and selective reporting; journalists come here, associate with people most like themselves, report on them, and leave the impression the whole country is like that. The problem is exacerbated by people engaging in sensationalism, presenting extreme examples as the norm. Some do it out of ignorance....passing along secondhand junk they've picked up with no way of knowing how much of it (if any) is accurate, fair, or up-to-date. Some do it out of a desire to impress their less-traveled friends back home with amazing and interesting stories about their adventures in an exotic land. After all, the last thing you want to do is go back home and have to tell everybody that daily life in Japan is just as humdrum, mundane, and routine as the place they came from.

And how much easier is it to just write off the people and the culture as odd, inscrutable, or impenetrable than it is to put forth the effort to find out otherwise? How much easier is it to presume discrimination and attribute to discrimination every bad thing that happens to you than to recognize that more often than not it is your own blinkered ignorance and refusal to put in the effort to alleviate your ignorance that is the problem? How much easier is it to wander about clueless, illiterate, and oblivious to what is going on around you, perceiving things as arbitrary, capricious, mysterious, and unknowable than it is to make the effort to learn the language and achieve enough literacy to be aware of what is going on around you instead of having to rely on others to wipe your figurative butt for you?

What I'm getting at is that what you're exposed to is the output of viewpoints which are typically the results of selectivity, sensationalism, blatant ignorance, or some combination thereof.

Japan is just a place and the Japanese are just people. Nice place and nice people....but still just a place and just people.
 
About the only thing Mike left out is that some of the garbage you read about Japan in the MSM also comes from the desire of some people to feel their culture is superior to another. Japan is an easy target for several reasons, although none of them stand out in particular. One of those reasons is just that that pattern of bashing Japan has been established. But there are some genuinely stupid and insane things going on here that defy all logic, that I won't deny. But of course, it is a bit harder to see how and why one's own culture contains some stupid and insane things, and yeah, I think of America's never ending supply of adoration and free passes for the military and soldiers when I say that.
 
It always seemed like the perfect place to live, but on the flip-side, people go on and on about extremely large amounts of work, alcoholism, racism, xenophobia, high expectations, etc.

About the work, its true for some people. But most are fakers, wasting time at the office in an effort to appear busy. But there is also the culture of creating busy work, which really does make people busy, but for no good reason, unless you think motion is its own reward (and Japanese tend to).

Alcoholism--I don't think so. High rates of alcohol consumption maybe, but that is not the same.

Racism--I don't think there is any more here than anywhere. When one says racism, one thinks of "race hate" and that is usually evidenced by violence or vandalism. Not much of either. But its typical for Japanese to assume foreigners can't speak Japanese and don't understand or won't conform to the norms and the culture. For example, some public baths won't allow foreigners in. People quickly say "racism" but when you have Russian sailors come in, sometimes drunk and unruly, not understanding that you cannot use soap in the bath, or should not shave in the bath, and no way to communicate with him cause he does not speak Japanese, well, you can understand the frustration. One ignorant foreigner can damage a business that is, like many in Japan, founded on delicate principles. Ten ignorant foreigners can effectively close you down. Why don't we have public baths and such in our countries? Because a few idiots would destroy them. We don't even try because we know we cannot get all on board to be civilized.

And I think the above pretty much explains xenophobia as well. So many foreigners don't understand and don't care to understand. Ten Americans might be highly cultured, respectable and almost Japanese, but their one loud, stupid American friend is going to taint their image. Its not fair, but its typical. So I think the tail wags the dog on racism and xenophobia. It is more often a few foreigners ruining it for everyone than Japanese being unfair, racist and xenophobic (but that happens too).

High expectations--definitely. And that is where the suicide rate comes in. There certainly are high expectations about things like what school you go to, what company you work for, or the amount of quality you get in a product. But there are so many things you will be surprised how the Japanese just fudge it. That happens when they load themselves up the aforementioned busy work. Then they just do whatever and you are often left wondering why the hell they even bothered.

But you would be surprised how finicky the Japanese can be about apartments and cars and things. They would sooner live in the tiniest cramped apartment in the world, at the most ridiculous price, so long as its new and clean, than live in a spacious apartment for cheap that is a bit run down and dingy. And so they stress themselves out over trifles.
 
I've heard quite a few things. As I understand it, Japan isn't a very accepting society when it comes to not excelling? I've heard and read about Japan being an intense society which is very efficient and tightly-coordinated, but has vicious consequences for those who can't keep up or don't feel like it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I'd be happy to certain degree if I was!)

That largely depends on who.

From the women I've talked too (including my wife, and the odd business owner) here they don't really want women excelling beyond men and would prefer they kept in a more traditional role of home making. You only need to dig out the statistics to confirm that when comparing to other 1st world countries.
 
The problem is selective association and selective reporting; journalists come here, associate with people most like themselves, report on them, and leave the impression the whole country is like that. The problem is exacerbated by people engaging in sensationalism, presenting extreme examples as the norm.

Actually, this is something that I've been growing very weary of lately. What bothers me is that Japan is thought of as "Land of the Perverts", where everyone proudly preys on young schools girls, watches hentai depicting their bizarre fetishes and cosplays every day. I'm not sure how closely related otaku in America and Japan are related, but it seems that everyone thinks that otaku culture is indicative of Japan as a whole, which I know couldn't be further off from reality. The most annoying thing about these stereotypes (aside from the fact that people tend to write Japan off for them) is the unbelievable amount of criticism Americans (and people from other nations, I'm sure) get for wanting to go to Japan.


Racism--I don't think there is any more here than anywhere. When one says racism, one thinks of "race hate" and that is usually evidenced by violence or vandalism. Not much of either. But its typical for Japanese to assume foreigners can't speak Japanese and don't understand or won't conform to the norms and the culture.

That's what I figured. Something I've come to understand about the people who come back and whine about their experience in Japan is that their criticisms about Japan are usually just based on a bad experience they had abroad, which they may or may not (probably the former) have totally deserved/started themselves. What absolutely disgusts me is that it's okay in countries like America to pull the race card whenever things don't work out the way you wanted, and it's really a shame to think that that sort of ridiculous mindset is what could have largely contributed to this stereotype that clouds Japan's image for Americans.

Tell me, would you say that the Japanese are a lot less sensitive about race and that sort of thing, at least in terms of the way race is looked at in America? I understand that there's a sort of proudness attached to being Japanese, but aside from that, isn't race much less of an issue in Japan? It seems to me that most Japanese won't get into such stupid social/personal/political messes over race since they seem to accept who they are, which would definitely explain the overly-excessive "racism" that so many westerners complain about there.


From the women I've talked too (including my wife, and the odd business owner) here they don't really want women excelling beyond men and would prefer they kept in a more traditional role of home making. You only need to dig out the statistics to confirm that when comparing to other 1st world countries.

Feminism has only recently started its course in Japan, right? Would you happen to know what most people in Japan think about it?



Mike, Zorro and Xaero, thank you very much for the replies -- they were incredibly helpful and answered quite a few of my questions!
 
Tell me, would you say that the Japanese are a lot less sensitive about race and that sort of thing, at least in terms of the way race is looked at in America

You need to open a new thread for this and the "land of the perverts" question.

No, don't accuse me of dodging.
 
If you could take the death (obon matsuri etc) and sucide (the suicide forest stuff, harakiri etc) related culture away from Japanese culture there'd be no more suicides in Japan than on your average western country. It's very difficult to change that though.

It's as simple as that.

Is it a problem? Sure it's a problem but personally i think that there's way too much attention to the down-sides of Japanese society - always in comparisons to the downsides of other countries which most people are simply clueless about. People should focus more on things that can change and really matter, like: over-working, Chinese and Korean anti-Japanese propaganda :p and low birth rates.
 
You blame Obon for an elevated incidence of suicide? Based on what?
 
You blame Obon for an elevated incidence of suicide? Based on what?
I'm no expert but when they say that Japan has too many suicides they're making that assumption by comparing the country with certain other countries. Obon is one of the differences, something that those other countries don't have. I think that it makes the Japanese a bit more accustomed to death than people of other countries. For example: Kids in western societies may not fully understand that people die etc until they're in their teens! Is that true with Japanese children? I doubt it.
 
I'm no expert but when they say that Japan has too many suicides they're making that assumption by comparing the country with certain other countries. Obon is one of the differences, something that those other countries don't have. I think that it makes the Japanese a bit more accustomed to death than people of other countries. For example: Kids in western societies may not fully understand that people die etc until they're in their teens! Is that true with Japanese children? I doubt it.

What specifically is it about Obon that makes you associate it with an elevated incidence of suicide? Can you cite statistics that show a spike in suicides around Obon. Most people in Japan associate Obon with 1)Going home to visit relatives 2)One of the few chances of taking several days off and 3)Oh yeah, we have to go to the cemetery and spend ten minutes cleaning up a bit.
 
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