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V~ず and V~ずに

raikado

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Hello,

Can you help me with the V~ずに and V~ず grammar? I know that V~ずに is the same as V~ないで. And V~ず seems to be used as both V~ないで and V~なくて (to link sentences).

For example, in this next sentence, I don't think せず can be replaced by しないで, but しなくて seems fine. Is this right?
「訪れる」は、「訪ねる」とほぼ同じ意味だが、「彼を訪れる」という言い方はせず、「彼の家を訪れる」の形になる。他に、「春が訪れる」「平和が訪れる」のように、ある時期・季節・状態が「やってくる」の意味にも用いる。 (おとずれる【訪れる】の類語・シソーラス - 類語辞書 - goo辞書)
 

Toritoribe

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What is your main question? It seems to me that you are asking about/confusing with the difference between ~しないで and ~しなくて, not the function of ~せず.
As for your example 言い方はせず, both しないで and しなくて work fine.
 

raikado

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Thank you! I thought I understood how ~しないで works, but I obviously didn't.

In my example, しないで works in the same way as is described in this image, right?
Untitled.png

Regarding 言い方はせず....Is せず the same as せずに?
 
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Toritoribe

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~しないで has broader meaning. ~しなくて is often used to express "cause/reason", but can be used also to continue clauses. Similarly, ~せず is preferred for continuous usage, but ~せずに is not wrong, either.
 

raikado

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I see. I always had the impression that ~せず, is just ~せずに with the particle に omitted, but this is not the case, right?

I have one more thing about ~しないで that I would like to ask. ~しないで can be used to express "cause/reason" too, right? For example:
住所も電話番号も分からないで、連絡が出来なかった。
And just to make sure...分からなくて, 分からず and 分からずに are correct too?
 

Toritoribe

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In that case, 分からないで sounds awkward. It seems to be a typo of 分からないので to me. Also, 分からずに seems to mean 分からないうちは, i.e., the address and telephone number is the contents of the information you are going to tell. 分からなくて and 分からず are more common for "cause/reason", anyway.
 

raikado

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Sorry, the sentence was originally with 分からず. At first I wanted to ask only about 分からないで. I thought it might work because of the sentence number 4 in this image:
Untitled.png
Honestly, I didn't really understand the 時間的な前後関係 in the explanation after the sentences so I kind of ignored it. Does this translate as "temporal relation between what's before ~ないで and what is after"?

So, in sentence (4), the temporal relation would be: "I didn't wake up in the morning" and after that, as a result "I was late to the lesson"?
 
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Toritoribe

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なくて sounds more natural for all those examples to me.
search results in a corpus
なくて困: 224 件
(including ~がなくて困)
ないで困: 6 件

Yes for 時間的な前後関係. It can be considered a kind of the continuous usage of the -te form.
 

raikado

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Ahh, I see. Thank you!

Also, 分からずに seems to mean 分からないうちは, i.e., the address and telephone number is the contents of the information you are going to tell.
Can you also explain this please? I really don't understand what you are talking about.
What does that うち mean?
And isn't 分からずに roughly the same as 分からないで? How does this become "the address and telephone number is the contents of the information you are going to tell"?
 

Toritoribe

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分からずに/分からないで/分からないうちは is "state or means(様子・手段)" in that sentence, as same as ナポリを見ずに死ねない "One cannot die without seeing Naples./See Naples and die". Thus, 住所も電話番号も分からずに is not "cause/reason", so it seems to mean to me that the address and telephone number are not the recipient's ones.
 

raikado

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Ok, I understand the meaning of うち now.

As for the meaning of the whole sentence...住所も電話番号も分からずに、連絡が出来なかった。would translate as "He couldn't contact (someone) without knowing the address or the telephone number."
Did I understand it right?
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, but it can be interpreted as a typo of 分からず or misuse of 分からずに, too.
 

raikado

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Hello,

I'd like to ask something else about ~せず. So, as far as I understand from this book ~せず, unlike せずに and ~しないで, does NOT mean ~しない状態で…する. ~せず is used to string sentences together, kind of like "and" (単に文を並べる). Is this correct?

I'll post the explanation from the book just in case. I'm talking about sentences (1) and (2).
Untitled.png

In this sentence for example: 彼は何も言わず、帰ってしまった。
言わないで and 言わずに are ~しない状態で…する, while 言わず is 単に文を並べる, correct?
 
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Toritoribe

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~せずに and ~しないで are not completely the same, and they are not always interchangeable. Also, similar to the -te form, the meaning is decided by the relation between the two clauses. I don't think there is significant difference in meaning between 彼は何も言わず、帰ってしまった and 彼は何も言わずに、帰ってしまった.
 
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