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Using Passive in this sentence?

Nocturne

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Hello, we are currently learning the grammar structure: にもかかわらず (Although/In spite of) and I came accross this sentence:

テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読ま れている。
(In spite of television being widespread, Japanese people often read the newspaper.)

My question is, why is 読む turned into 読まれ (Passive)? I thought passive voice was used when the object is the topic of the sentence (that is, when you need to say "was" eg. was written, was discovered etc.)? Can the sentence be written as:

テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読ん でいる。 ??

Or does 「にもかかわらず」 need passive voice to work properly?

Thank you :D
 

undrentide

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Hello, we are currently learning the grammar structure: にもかかわらず (Although/In spite of) and I came accross this sentence:

テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読ま れている。
(In spite of television being widespread, Japanese people often read the newspaper.)

My question is, why is 読む turned into 読まれ (Passive)? I thought passive voice was used when the object is the topic of the sentence (that is, when you need to say "was" eg. was written, was discovered etc.)? Can the sentence be written as:

テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読ん でいる。 ??

Or does 「にもかかわらず」 need passive voice to work properly?

日本人は新聞がよく読まれている is not correct, maybe it should read
日本では新聞がよく読まれている。
I guess passive mode is used here because main topic is TV and newspapers, it is natural to make 新聞 the subject.

If you want to avoid passive,
日本人は新聞をよく読んでいる。
(You cannot replace を with が.)
 

Mike92101

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Hello, we are currently learning the grammar structure: にもかかわらず (Although/In spite of) and I came across this sentence:
テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読まれている。
(In spite of television being widespread, Japanese people often read the newspaper.)
My question is, why is 読む turned into 読まれ (Passive)? I thought passive voice was used when the object is the topic of the sentence (that is, when you need to say "was" e.g. was written, was discovered etc.)? Can the sentence be written as:
テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読んでいる。 ??
Or does 「にもかかわらず」 need passive voice to work properly?
Thank you :D

It's a bit inauspicious, in that this will be only my 12th or 13th post, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with Undrentideさん regarding her view that:

"日本人は新聞がよく読まれている is not correct, maybe it should read
日本では新聞がよく読まれている。"


My contention is that [日本人は新聞がよく読まれている] is quite grammatical. It uses the so-called "passive honorific."

In Japanese, a passive verb is used on occasion to convey honorific meaning. [日本人は新聞がよく読まれている] could be written [日本人は新聞がよく読みになっている], using the regular honorific verb form 読みになる; the [読みになる] version is more polite.

Yes, [テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読まれている] could be written as [テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読んでいる], and convey an identical meaning, but it would have no honorific implication.

[~にもかかわらず] has no control over the form of the verb used. Put another way, the verb used doesn't depend on [~にもかかわらず].
 
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Toritoribe

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I completely agree with undrentide-san. I, too, suppose that it's a typo of 日本は新聞がよく読まれている. GRAMMATICALLY, it should be 日本人は新聞よく読まれている, if it's the honorific(just the honorific, not passive). It still sounds a bit awkward, though.
 
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undrentide

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It's a bit inauspicious, in that this will be only my 12th or 13th post, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with Undrentideさん regarding her view that:

"日本人は新聞がよく読まれている is not correct, maybe it should read
日本では新聞がよく読まれている。"

My contention is that [日本人は新聞がよく読まれている] is quite grammatical. It uses the so-called "passive honorific."

In Japanese, a passive verb is used on occasion to convey honorific meaning. [日本人は新聞がよく読まれている] could be written [日本人は新聞がよく読みになっている], using the regular honorific verb form 読みになる; the [読みになる] version is more polite.

In case of 読む, particle が cannot be used for the object.
It is grammatically possible if it reads
日本人は新聞よく読まれている。

Also in
日本人は新聞よく読みになっている
is not correct - you need to add お before the verb 読む.
新聞をよく読みになっている
お~になる is the correct form of honorific and you cannot omit お here.
使う → 使いになる
遊ぶ → 遊びになる
読む → 読みになる

Yes, [テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読まれている] could be written as [テレビの普及にもかかわらず、日本人は新聞がよく読んでいる], and convey an identical meaning, but it would have no honorific implication.

Again, you cannot use が here.
If you replace が with を, it makes sense as honorific form but not passive.
Honorific expression does not fit in this text, though, and if it is to be understood as passive, then it is a passive of damage/annoyance.
日本人は新聞をよく読まれている sounds more like someone (other than the Japanese) read the newspapers which belong to the Japanese and the third person(s) take advantage of Japanese or take away the newspapers from the Japanese, etc.

[~にもかかわらず] has no control over the form of the verb used. Put another way, the verb used doesn't depend on [~にもかかわらず].
I agree with this particular point. :)
 

Mike92101

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In case of 読む, particle が cannot be used for the object.
It is grammatically possible if it reads
日本人は新聞よく読まれている。

Also in
日本人は新聞よく読みになっている
is not correct - you need to add お before the verb 読む.
新聞をよく読みになっている
お~になる is the correct form of honorific and you cannot omit お here.
使う → 使いになる
遊ぶ → 遊びになる
読む → 読みになる



Again, you cannot use が here.
If you replace が with を, it makes sense as honorific form but not passive.
Honorific expression does not fit in this text, though, and if it is to be understood as passive, then it is a passive of damage/annoyance.
日本人は新聞をよく読まれている sounds more like someone (other than the Japanese) read the newspapers which belong to the Japanese and the third person(s) take advantage of Japanese or take away the newspapers from the Japanese, etc.


I agree with this particular point. :)

As I feared in my last post, it really *was* an inauspicious one. :blackeye:

Not to be off-putting, but before all is said and done, I'm sure I'll make many more idiot mistakes in the future, inadvertently.

Your post was very enlightening, and I realize that:
(1) I was too shiftless in what I wrote, and didn't edit it well enough,
(2) I learned a lot from your post, and
(3) I wrote it in my notebook , because it was very enlightening.

Especially surprising was learning that お- in the honorific forms as showed was indispensable. Till now, I had (mistakenly) thought that it was optional.

Thank you for your reasonable response. I will be more deliberative in the future before responding to posts, as well.
 

Nocturne

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...Whoa! Sorry everyone, didn't mean to cause all this confusion :sorry:

[日本人は] was a typo :( It was meant to be [日本では].

Thank you everyone for your assistance, and sorry again.
 
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