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Translating a japanese song thread.

dhmkhkk

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Hi guys (or better to say Toritoribe :joyful: ),

since I'm not letting go till I've translated this very special to me japanese song I've decided to create this thread where I would post various questions instead of spamming the whole forum with numerous threads. So here it comes.

1. すいた駅を少し走った
I was running a little bit to(or maybe through) the station? What is すいた?

2. しわよせで こんなふうに雑に
雨の夜にきみを抱きしめてた
..... in such a rough way
i embraced you (held you?) on a rainy night.

Because of しわよせ l ended up reading an article about the industrial organisation of Japan and how smaller companies were being neglected in comparison to the bigger ones or something of that sort. "Burden-shifting". What does it have to do with this song?o_O

Another thing which is confusing to me is the use of に. こんな ふう に ざつ に. I understand what the sentence means but cannot connect the words together. Till now I have only encountered に for direction 日本に, to become ...に なる, time きんぞうび に. What does the に of the lyrics mean grammatically?

Thank you in advance for your help. You guys make me happy :x3:
 

raikado

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1)
すいた is the past form of 空く(すく).
を means "through" when used with verbs that indicate motion.

Also, it is not "I was running", but "I ran". The past form doesn't show that the action is continuous.
 

dhmkhkk

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Thank you. So, すいた is "got empty". Does it mean that plain past form of the verbs can be used like adjectives - "empty station"?
 

raikado

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Yes. It shows the state of the station ("empty").
 
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Toritoribe

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1)
Actually, the line you quoted and the preceding one are a single sentence.

きみは雨にけむる
すいた駅を少し走った

Thus, the subject of 走った is "you", not "I". You would think you already understood that きみは雨にけむる meant something like "you are shrouded in the rain" and there was no need to ask about it, but actually, the subject of 雨にけむる is not "you". The clause 雨にけむる modifies 駅, as same as すいた.

Japanese is a context-driven language. As you can see above, the meaning can easily change depending on the context. That's exactly the reason why you need to show us the context in detail or the entire lyrics.

2)
typo: きんぞうび --> きんうび

There is nothing to do with it, of course. The speaker is talking about しわよせ caused by his attitude 言葉にできず凍えたままで人前ではやさしく生きていた.

ふうに and 雑に are the adverbial form of na-adjectives ふうだ and 雑だ, respectively, and こんなふうに is an adverbial phrase modifying 雑に.

Notice that it's 抱きしめた, not 抱きしめた. It's a past habit, not an one-off event.


No offense, but judging from your posts so far and a fact you even didn't know the modifying clause, I have some doubt about your interpretation of the lines you think you already got the meaning.
 

Mike Cash

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There's a lot more to translating than just looking up words in a dictionary....

Naturally, the thread will end up being us doing the translating for you.


May I ask why this song became so special to you if you don't even have any idea what it says? I just googled it, expecting to find some fantastic song, and I can't say I understand what is so appealing about it.
 

Toritoribe

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Probably because this is the ending theme song of Shinkai Makoto's anime movie 言の葉の庭, who is the director of 君の名は。.
 

Mike Cash

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Probably because this is the ending theme song of Shinkai Makoto's anime movie 言の葉の庭, who is the director of 君の名は。.
Yeah, I found on YouTube that it came from an animation. But not having seen the movie, only having listened to part of the song, I can't understand what is appealing about it.
 

dhmkhkk

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Hi guys,
@Toritoribe
thanks for your help so far.

1. I understand what you are saying but how did you find out 雨にけむる is modifying the "station"? There is even the "きみ" there. So from my understanding of the context (of course, I am wrong :) ), it is about "you". Is there a rule or something?

2. Sorry for the typo, my keyboard is german, so z and y are switched there.

I know my knowledge of Japanese is really limited but this is not a reason to give up right? I have to begin somewhere. I am at the end of the intermediate (or so they say) level of "Japanese -Living Language" course and it has just so little practice (no reading AT ALL) that I'm getting desperate. I was thinking it would be good to get more exposed to the language. And the best way to do so from my previous experience would be watching/listening to something in Japanese. Neither German nor English are my native languages, yet I can speak both through watching movies in these languages.

I've tried watching anime but it is just so damn difficult that I gave it up for the moment and thought about beginning with something small - that song. I'm always trying to find similarities of Japanese with English, German or Russian to try and remember the things better through associations, but there are just none whatsoever. Japanese is just soooooo different from everything I've learned so far.

Anyway, thank you for your help so far. If I'm getting annoying and you don't feel like helping anymore just give me a word, I will stop posting here. No offense taken.

@Mike Cash
You are being a little mean, mister. If you don't want to help me, then don't. I never asked for your help specifically. I think there are also other people in this forum except you, right? :)

I like the song not because of the anime. It's just every time I listened to it in the past I thought "This language is so beautiful, I want to understand it". This song was actually the trigger to my starting learning Japanese. And every time I feel like giving up (which happens so very often) I just listen to it and my mood gets better. That's why it is special to me.

How about you? How did you learn English (I assume you are from Japan)? Was it difficult for you? Did you also have some motivation like this song is to me?

@all: I really don't want to cause trouble to anyone here. If I'm being annoying and should leave, just tell me to do so.
 

Toritoribe

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You need to learn the difference in the tense between modifying clause and the main predicative of the sentence. When the verb in the modifying clause expresses a state and the main verb is past, both the past (or ~ていた) and present (or ~ている) form can be used for the verb in the modifying clause, and the meaning is the same between these two tenses. For instance, there is no difference in 道路に落ちている財布を拾った and 道路に落ちていた財布を拾った. Incidentally, you can't use 道路に落ちる財布 since 落ちる is an action, and can't be a state "fallen on the road". (Actually, the meaning can be changed depending on other factors, but I omit the detail here.)

雨にけむる is a state, so 雨にけむった, 雨にけむっている and 雨にけむっていた are all the same in meaning in a modifying clause. The writer chose けむる mostly because of the rhythm/melody, as I pointed out previously.
If it's きみは雨にけむって(い)た すいた駅を少し走った, it grammatically can mean "You were shrouded in the rain. I ran through the station." depending on the context, i.e., the following lines. However, けむる is rarely used to describe a state of people. I checked in a corpus and confirmed that the objects of 雨にけむる are all sights such like 神殿, 大木, 駅, 河原, 家々の灯り, 公園の彫像, 海, 風景, etc.. I would use 雨にかすむ for people instead. This is also the reason of my interpretation.

Incidentally, すいた is also chosen for the rhythm/melody. すいた is understandable, but すいて(い)る or すいて(い)た is more common.

は rules the whole sentence. That's why きみ is the subject of 走った.

I was thinking it would be good to get more exposed to the language. And the best way to do so from my previous experience would be watching/listening to something in Japanese. Neither German nor English are my native languages, yet I can speak both through watching movies in these languages.

I've tried watching anime but it is just so damn difficult that I gave it up for the moment and thought about beginning with something small - that song. I'm always trying to find similarities of Japanese with English, German or Russian to try and remember the things better through associations, but there are just none whatsoever. Japanese is just soooooo different from everything I've learned so far.
Yes, that's the reason you need to learn Japanese properly, for instance through decent textbooks, and I believe this is "somewhere" you are looking for. It's impossible to learn Japanese as the same way you did for the Indo-European languages.

If I'm getting annoying and you don't feel like helping anymore just give me a word, I will stop posting here.
As I said previously, this is exactly the place for learning Japanese. There is no problem to ask questions. I just hope my explanations can be helpful for your understanding.

As for my learning English, it was just for entrance exam, as same as many other Japanese students. (Well, later I did watching movies, sports on TV, or listening music, etc., but I don't think this is my motivation.)
 

dhmkhkk

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First of all, thank you for the explanation. There is one thing I didn't quite understand... First you wrote:
雨にけむる is a state, so 雨にけむった, 雨にけむっている and 雨にけむっていた are all the same in meaning in a modifying clause.
and then you said:
If it's きみは雨にけむって(い)た すいた駅を少し走った, it grammatically can mean "You were shrouded in the rain. I ran through the station." depending on the context, i.e., the following lines.
As far as I understood according to this particular form (けむる) you figured out it is not the girl who is shrouded by the rain, but the station. But don't けむる、けむっている、けむった and けむっていた all mean the same thing grammatically in this context? Then why did you say that 雨にけむる is modifying the word "station"?

Was it difficult for you to learn English? When I was in Japan I couldn't communicate with people at all since literally nobody knew English except for hotel staff :) I figured it must be very difficult for the Japanese to learn it. :)
 

Toritoribe

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Read more carefully. I wrote "those are the same in meaning in the modifying clause", not as the main verb. If it's きみは雨にけむって(い)た, not けむる, けむって(い)た can be the main verb (, and as a result, those two lines can be two sentences). In other words, けむる can't be the main verb. きみは雨にけむって(い)た すいた駅を少し走った can be both single sentence and two sentences grammatically, and the meaning is determined by the context.

I learned English by textbook in school, not from movie, drama or music. You just didn't meet people who can speak English.
 

mdchachi

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@all: I really don't want to cause trouble to anyone here. If I'm being annoying and should leave, just tell me to do so.
Not at all. You're welcome here. If people don't want to participate in your threads they can ignore you. By the same token, if you find somebody particularly annoying and don't want to interact with them there is a forum feature where you can ignore them. Click on their name and select "ignore" and you will not see their messages. (This is a better solution than arguing with them.)
 

Mike Cash

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I like the song not because of the anime. It's just every time I listened to it in the past I thought "This language is so beautiful, I want to understand it". This song was actually the trigger to my starting learning Japanese. And every time I feel like giving up (which happens so very often) I just listen to it and my mood gets better. That's why it is special to me.
Thank you. That's all I asked.

How about you? How did you learn English (I assume you are from Japan)? Was it difficult for you? Did you also have some motivation like this song is to me?
No, English is my native language.
 

dhmkhkk

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Click on their name and select "ignore" and you will not see their messages. (This is a better solution than arguing with them.)
Good to know! That is a wonderful feature, thank you :)
 

Toritoribe

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Can you show us your final translation of those lines?
 

dhmkhkk

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So that's what I've got so far:

言葉にできず凍えたままで
人前ではやさしく生きていた
not being able to say anything, frozen [as always?]
I was living gently in front of people

しわよせで こんなふうに雑に
雨の夜にきみを抱きしめてた
In order (?) to shift the burden I was embracing you roughly on rainy nights

道路わきのビラと壊れた常夜燈
街角ではそう だれもが急いでた
[by]the buildings on the roadside, [under] the broken night lights
at the street corner everyone was in a rush (was rushing)

きみじゃない 悪いのは自分の激しさを
かくせないぼくのほうさ
it's not you, it's my fault,
me, who is not able to hold back his temper.

Lady きみは雨にけむる
すいた駅を少し走った
Lady, you ran through an empty station which was shrouded in rain (thanks Toritoribe :) )

どしゃぶりでもかまわないと
"I don't care about the rain" (=I don't care if it rains)

ずぶぬれでもかまわないと
"I don't care about being drenched"

しぶきあげるきみが消えてく
Making splashes, you disappear

路地裏では朝が早いから
Since the morning comes early on the back streets

今のうちにきみをつかまえ
I am trying? to catch you right now (not sure grammatically what "tsukamaE" is)

行かないで 行かないで
don't go, don't go

そう言うよ
I call out
 

Toritoribe

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There are many errors so just about the first two sentences.

You need to check again what まま means. It's not "always".
As I pointed out, 抱きしめてた is a past habit, not past progressive. 生きていた is the same. I would use "used to".
You didn't get しわよせで yet.
You missed こんなふうに.
 

dhmkhkk

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You need to check again what まま means. It's not "always".
it means a state that hastn't changes. I have trouble translating it in English. So he was and still remains frozen.

You are right, I don't get shiwayose. How would you translate it? I was kind of hoping you could give me a translation for this word.

Konna fuu ni - I just let it out since it doesn't really matter (in my opinion) for the meaning of the song if I say "roughly" or "in a rough way". Am I missing something?

Dakishimeteta - "was embracing every night" is for me not necessarily a continuous action, but something which happened many times. I might be wrong though in terms of English. "used to embrace" would probably sound better. Anyway, I understand the meaning behind it.
 

Toritoribe

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it means a state that hastn't changes. I have trouble translating it in English. So he was and still remains frozen.
That's the meaning of まま as the predicative (e.g 凍えたままだ). AままB means B is done/happens in the state of A, for instance 彼は立ったまま寝ている He is sleeping while standing up, thus, it's not "still remains frozen".

You are right, I don't get shiwayose. How would you translate it? I was kind of hoping you could give me a translation for this word.
で indicates the cause/reason, not purpose. I would use "because of that" or something.

Konna fuu ni - I just let it out since it doesn't really matter (in my opinion) for the meaning of the song if I say "roughly" or "in a rough way". Am I missing something?
May I ask what こんなふうに literally means?
 

dhmkhkk

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That's the meaning of まま as the predicative (e.g 凍えたままだ). AままB means B is done/happens in the state of A, for instance 彼は立ったまま寝ている He is sleeping while standing up, thus, it's not "still remains frozen".
So, 凍えたままで生きていた - frozen, I used to live...?

I'm sorry, I just can't seem to understand the meaning of しわよせ. How is it translated in English? Burden shifting? Which burden, why shifting? Is it some kind of "present only in Japanese"word same as 木漏れ日 which is untranslatable?

ふうに and 雑に are the adverbial form of na-adjectives ふうだ and 雑だ, respectively, and こんなふうに is an adverbial phrase modifying 雑に.
I don't know what ふうだ means (lexically). "da" is probably for "desu" there. I honestly thought fuu is "way". So, こんなふうに would mean for me "[in] such a way". I don't understand how it can be an adjective and how to translate it.
 
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Toritoribe

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So, 凍えたままで生きていた - frozen, I used to live...?
In what meaning did you use "frozen" there?

I'm sorry, I just can't seem to understand the meaning of しわよせ. How is it translated in English? Burden shifting? Which burden, why shifting?
As I mentioned previously, 言葉にできず凍えたままで人前ではやさしく生きていた is the burden for him, and he shifted it to he. As a result, his attitude/behavior/action towards her was "rough". That's why I translated it as "because of that".

I don't know what ふうだ means (lexically). "da" is probably for "desu" there. I honestly thought fuu is "way". So, こんなふうに would mean for me "[in] such a way". I don't understand how it can be an adjective and how to translate it.
Yes, ふう(=風) is "way", and the adverbial phrase こんなふうに means "in this way/like this".
 

dhmkhkk

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In what meaning did you use "frozen" there?
Doesn't 凍えるmean "to freeze, to be frozen"? Not sure how the author of the song meant it exactly, I think everyone can interpret it the way he/she wants it. For me personally frozen means numb, so not feeling anything. But we are not at a literature lesson here and I wouldn't want to focus on the interpretation too much. The dictionary meaning is "to freeze".

Any comments about the rest of the song?
 

Toritoribe

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I'm asking about the reason why you used the past participle, in other words, what is the function of "frozen" in that sentence? I can't judge if you really understand the meaning of まま without knowing it.

Any comment about the explanation of しわよせ? Did you get it?
 

dhmkhkk

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As you explained before with AままB, A is some kind of state - a state of being frozen. Function in a sentence? You mean like subject/predicate? Sorry, i have no idea how it's called...

Shiwayose: I understand the meaning of the sentence. But this is how it looks to me grammatically (like, literally):

not being able to say anything, frozen... blabla...
because of burden shifting ... I used to embrace you on rainy nights.

Since しわよせ = burden shifting, so in my head it's not "because of the burden", but "because of the burden shifting". That's why it's so confusing.
 
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