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The sound of language

Chi65

Sempai
14 Nov 2007
951
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To the team:
This may be the wrong section, but I could not think of a better one.
please change the place, if necessary.

This is a bit difficult to explain, but I was wondering, what non-Japanese feel or hear, when they hear the Japanese language.
I do not mean, the translation or meaning of the words, just the impresion, that you get, by hearing it.

You can compare it with music, or dance, pace, colour, element, temperature, whatever appears in your mind.

Also, you can compare it with other languages, that you have heard, if that makes it easier.

For me, the japanese language has often woken up images of clapping wood, kind of percussiv thus, and more in the middle of whatsoever, decent, but strong, also a scent of wood comes very often with this. Water can be seen, but not felt in the language, its not so flowing. Alltogether quite nice, actually.

While Chinese is much more high in the air in general for me, also more like on higher heels, and I see many birds and flowers, scents of those too. Alltogether softer, thinner, brighter colours, a bit transparent even at times, but not powerless at all, but more playfull.

Compared with this, the Korean language comes from deep out of the stomack or even deeper down, is more like a earthy and healthy root, and directly earth or even under the earth, and rolls along, pretty round and kind of dark velvet reddish, more booty.

This is just my very personal perception, maybe yours is entirely different and you might prefer to compare it with your own language.

So, now, how and what do you feel or see about spoken Japanese language?
(its Ok, if you cannot yet understand the words, maybe thats even more interesting)


🙂
 
it is interesting for me ...,too
For me, the japanese language has often woken up images of clapping wood, kind of percussiv thus, and more in the middle of whatsoever, decent, but strong, also a scent of wood comes very often with this. Water can be seen, but not felt in the language, its not so flowing. Alltogether quite nice, actually


in the morning sun= a sa hi no na ka ni
i think each pronunciation were surely clapping wood...
However,as for music or some situation, ahhhhsahhhhheeeenoooonahhhkahhni,
vowels are changed like clapping wood or slow earth tremor.

like this


When You Believe JPN



Belle(Japanese Translation

korean
 
In my opinion, Japanese is indeed comparable to wooden or percussion instruments, but that might come from the way the language is spoken. It is in this sense very different from other asian languages I know.
For example, whenever I speak chinese, many people always say that it sounds like I am singing...although there is somewhat of a "plugged-nose" effect. The reason I believe is because Chinese is a tune-oriented language (4/5 tunes in mandarin - 8/9 in cantonese).
Similarily in Vietnamese, there is a lot of nasal sounds (much more than in chinese imo) and that is something that I can hear whenever one of my vietnamese friends tries to speak french or english to me.
In comparison, whenever I hear my japanese acquaintances speak, I can't help but feel like they roll their tongue a lot...using many N and R/L based sounds and if spoken more slowly, almost sounds like a prayer to me.
Regarding the language flow, I guess depending on the person who is speaking, the feel might be completely different, and I really love hearing japanese spoken in a slow and soft voice which gives a cartain feel of tranquility.
 
(I will have to check Caster's links a bit later, OK? Sounds good, what he writes!)

In my opinion, Japanese is indeed comparable to wooden or percussion instruments, but that might come from the way the language is spoken. It is in this sense very different from other asian languages I know.

Somehow, the above, Korean, Chinese and Japanese ones are all very different to my ears and perceptions, even if you later realise similarities, but adopted to each ones own liking, somewhat.
But if you check Mandarin and Kantonese, you already get a very different "picture", thus I should have said Mandarin rather than Chinese, sorry, my mistake.

For example, whenever I speak chinese, many people always say that it sounds like I am singing...although there is somewhat of a "plugged-nose" effect. The reason I believe is because Chinese is a tune-oriented language (4/5 tunes in mandarin - 8/9 in cantonese).

Some interesting aspects here! They say about themselves, that they are singing, indeed! Thats adds to the often flying impression too. There are these old cave pictures of flying geniuses, its like their flying scarves, for example (ah, thats why the transparent nature, that I often perceive. . .).
The "plugged nose" effect actually has a shamanistic tradition, go to the Mongol overtone-singings, (I can do this myself), it has a very strong relation to forcing the tone up through your nose, without loosing the base power and tone! And it makes the top of your head vibrate. . .thus, the overtones are indeed over your head!
And parts of this technique does in fact live on in their language.
And has found its way via silkroad(!) to the french language of the court, not so the south or some northern parts of France though.
I met French people in China, they confirmed that sound similarity, surprised themselves.

Similarily in Vietnamese, there is a lot of nasal sounds (much more than in chinese imo) and that is something that I can hear whenever one of my vietnamese friends tries to speak french or english to me.

Interesting, I must listen to some, we have several around by now, and yes, true, I often mistook them for Chinese, but could not figure out their "slang", so to say and was very puzzled. Thats right, the musical and colour-impression is very similar indeed. A bit more rounded for me.
And a kind of reddish in many variations.

In comparison, whenever I hear my japanese acquaintances speak, I can't help but feel like they roll their tongue a lot...using many N and R/L based sounds and if spoken more slowly, almost sounds like a prayer to me.

Thats a very interesting aspect, the prayer, indeed. It becomes even more interesting, if you compare it with Korean prayers, who are often very rhythmic, which must come from old Mongol influence (of speaking), because one can hear the same rhythmic musical impression on the Balcany and Hungaria particularly, all places, where Dchingis Khan left his traces. . .
Here is an example of a Korean pansori, an epic singing, that has this very same syncopic rhythm, very unique in its way, but similar to what I know from here (not the singing technique though. I once attended a pansori workshop in Berlin as only non Korean, because I was invited. The teacher was a very famous korean pansori singer. I have the four workshop days taped, btw)



You can follow cultural influences via music, and thats a very clear trace.
Thus, also in the prayers, there one might find according traces, be it in percussiv or other musical technique's way.
By which we then have the percussion, the clappings, again connected to prayers, even if a certain more continental rhythm is gone, but another one is established.

Also, if I hear some japanese singings, there still is so much of the earthy sounds and the high shamanistic pitches added, that tickle your top of the head.
As for No and Kabuki etc., if you know what I mean.

There is a clear connection to old shamanistic rituals and even more close to Chinese and Korean language.
The "rolling" is also within the Chinese one, often sounds like American "chewinggum" again, btw. I was often puzzled about that aspect, its quite earthy once more.

But in Japan and daily life, its reduced to a more moderate middle somehow, I feel, preference rhythm, which is just another aspect of shamanistic rituals, and thus also related to the prayer techiques once more.

Oops, I get such a flood of pictures and interconnections right now. . .
Help! I should be painting right away now to express/illustrate all this;-)

Regarding the language flow, I guess depending on the person who is speaking, the feel might be completely different, and I really love hearing japanese spoken in a slow and soft voice which gives a cartain feel of tranquility.

Right, I can see/hear it. . .One with the flow, in general, but still a woody scent for me. . .not ocean itself.

Maybe a boat on the ocean?

Hm. . .makes sense somehow, for an island, wouldn't it?

🌹for your nice inspiring post :)
 
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it is interesting for me ...,too
in the morning sun= a sa hi no na ka ni
i think each pronunciation were surely clapping wood...
However,as for music or some situation, ahhhhsahhhhheeeenoooonahhhkahhni,
vowels are changed like clapping wood or slow earth tremor.
like this

When You Believe JPN

Belle(Japanese Translation

korean


Wow, Caster turns out to be real heartfull dreamer too!

You may have to wait for an answer, I am enjoying your links so much right now. . ;-)
thank you so very much
- - - - -
Still enchanted, but back. . .

Caster, I like your earth tremor example very much, right! That may have something to do with the preference of rhythmic, apart from the heart beat, and the still so alive drummings too for sure. It mirrors the daily experiences in Japan somehow, right! That maybe one reason, indeed.

I think, "structured" is also a fitting word, for the japanese language sound . . .like branches and every leaf clearly seen, rather than all the green coverings all over in a lumb.

I had a strong liking for Japanese art as a former graphic designer student, thus "graphical" would also fit very much (Even if the paintbrush works are different, but thats another story alltogether). Even the way, the colours are then added, is a kind of highlightning "precision", even in a flow. Hokusai's wave is a very good example, still. I can easily translate this into music as well.

Also the Hanabis, no matter what, they are high "precision", also the way they are represented in Japan: like musical pieces, like pearls on a row, if you know, what I mean. And every piece even gets a name! Far different than hereabout.

I can once more compare this to the Japanese language. . .thus I "see" different pictures, while I hear it, than I would in Korea, or China, or here etc.

Once we had a japanese Jazztrumpet player over here, I will never forget this wonderfull open air concert with all its extremely sensitive detailed, yet spontaneous elastic pictures, that it woke up in me, absolutely beautifull!
Very unique and alive and yet naturally structured, almost another planet. I still think, he told me a lot about a japanese "soul". . .even without words, but it is also in this language. . .

A big thank you once more for the links, Caster, pure joy, really!

Please also try the pansori link on the post for dreamer for a change!

It is late, we had a complete public transport strike here today, so I had to walk for hours and am very tired now.

Enjoy and good night! :)
 
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This is a question that would take a professor of semiotics and linguistics a lifetime to answer. Wow. I imagine guys like Derrida would have something interesting to say about this.

(Leave it to me to be all academic about an artistic, feeling-driven concept.)
 
Who is Derrida, please?

Although I am an artist mainly, I would love to exchange views, any which way, as long as you let my kind also live ;-)!
 
Who is Derrida, please?
Although I am an artist mainly, I would love to exchange views, any which way, as long as you let my kind also live ;-)!

Derrida - Wikipedia

Jacques Derrida, a 20th century French philosopher. He wrote a lot about deconstruction and some of his work influenced the so-called "linguistic turn" in semiotics and social sciences. Semiotics especially is an interesting field, as it is the study of signs and "signifiers". It is the study of how things carry and convey meaning, from sounds to physical objects and pictures. Fascinating field.

In regards to your question, how does hearing Japanese feel, that is a fascinating concept for linguistics and semiotics. The Japanese phonemes of Japanese not only carry meaning but also invoke an emotional and mental reaction from the listener, just like any language. I am thoroughly unequipped to really speculate on the subject, but it has interesting tie-ins to some of the things I've studied.

By the way, I am not an adherent of Derrida's methodology and even disagree with a number of his conclusions, although I still find him interesting.
 
Thank you very much, I am just reading this link from you. . .



Did you come along Benjamin Whorf, btw?

Benjamin Lee Whorf - Wikipedia

as an example:
The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis primarily dealt with the way that language affects thought. Also sometimes called the Whorfian hypothesis, this theory claims that the language a person speaks affects the way that he or she thinks, meaning that the structure of the language itself affects cognition.

He mainly studied Native American Indian languages.
Example:

. . .the Hopi language is seen to contain no words, grammatical forms, construction or expressions or that refer directly to what we call "time", or to past, present, or future

His work was quite wellknown to us in the 70ties, but not in terms of sound, but because of relation to time perceptions or/and general views of life etc. Very fascinating, I still have one book from him amd keep on recommending him. I would have loved to hear his examples, btw.

I was not aware, that, as you say, the sounds are also included in linguistic studies, but, of course, it makes sense. I often get this connection to music studies from listening to the first available sounds of a culture, which mostly is either purely musical or language (or pictures, which also evoke sounds in me, as a synaesthete).

This is another great field, what travelled which way and started where and how and met whom etc. etc.

When I visited native indians myself many years ago, I heard almost the same singing techniques and drums, as later in Asia. And later on I happened to meet a scientist from a Seoul University, who got quite excited about it, he simply never thought about this kind of connection before.

It as much applies to the Japanese drums and singing techniques, for example. Since I have done a lot of singing myself, my ear is wide open for this. Which also means, that I have a big arsenal of accordingly stored memories, who, when touched, simply wake up, including their similarities, and also show the differences more and more clearly, of course.

I thus also love some japanese comedians, who just tell you stories, while sitting (what was their name? A certain traditional genre). Even if I do not understand much of the language, I kind of get sucked into this and start seeing vivid scenes and pictures.

Its also the same with NO theatre, my western friends often fall asleep somehow, while I get the most wonderfull experiences and could stay forever in this twilight zone.

Same things happen to me with any Chinese Opera, for example, everybody very soon is out from the western side, while I forget all about time etc. and suddenly feel one with the audience and feel as excited and do the clappings at the exactly the same time and parts, as they do.

How can I describe such intense feelings of "home"?

Does anyone here understand this from own experience?

OK, back to Derrida (Thanks!) ;-)
 
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The concept of a language affecting cognition is very interresting and I believe that it is not that far from the truth (though who knows if it's language that affects thoughts or the contrary). I think that anyone who has studied a few language can testify that whenever using a language, their thought process are indeed different from when they are using their mothertongue, in my opinion this is part of what we call "broadening one's mind".


Now,reading all these comparisons to music made me remember of a strange experience I had when I was still but a high school student.

I remember that once, several singers came to our school in order to perform songs from various countries. As amazaing as it may appear, they did not appear to have any accent when singing in a language that they did not speak.
For instance, we had a gentleman singing the Marriage of Figaro in Italian, and when my friend whose family was Italian tried to ask him some questions, the person just said that he did not speak italian. You would have loved the look on my friend's face when he said that the singer's accent and pronounciation was perfect.
 
Japanese spoken language is soft and feel of river-flowing,it's delicate oppose to Korean sounds coarse & deep.

By the way,I love this beautiful song caster51 posted here.

 
is it also related?
i dont know it is a truth or not.
JOG(240) The Japanese Language Brain
for example,cicada in Japan
it is not annoying for Japanese th hear that though some foreigner feel so noisy

Thats a very interesting article, Caster! Thank you very much!
As for related, I do not see it so narrow. . .and since they discovered, that cicadas are more received in the language aerea in Japanese, it for sure is very interesting too! (I cannot think about Japan without the summer cicada sounds, indeed! and if we say, the cicadas are Japanese here, and thats their language, it is very well related ;-))
This was new to me, not so new was most of the neurological rest though. I need more time to "work it out".
I do believe anyhow, that asians in general have different perceptions, and it was proved by some studies lately. Interesting is, that those are close to many artists in general. . .thus the quick nonverbal links, that I had.

I once had a nice experience with a japanese female artist here, we made different cicada noises on a lakeside within Berlin, that looked very japanese in the summer evening. She taught me many different cicada-language expressions, with other words, and how Japanese interpret them. We had great fun!!

Only, how do I find the bridge of musical or language perceptions of cicadas?? Hmm. . .I must sleep this over. . .;-)
 
Japanese spoken language is soft and feel of river-flowing,it's delicate oppose to Korean sounds coarse & deep.
By the way,I love this beautiful song caster51 posted here.


In relation, yes, I would also say so, but in relation to Chinese, my own picture changes a bit.

But singing is another level, I loved casters first links very much, there it was indeed very soft and tender, when sung by a woman. It is indeed very beautifull and enchanting, I am with you in this. I really LOVE this voice! There is indeed very much water into this, also the voice.
Mizu, of course (very nice word, one of my favourites). . .we say "Wasser" in German, which is more the slightly noisy sound of the flow, waves. . .and mizu has a very different character, indeed more the quality of water, soft clear purity, I would say (but the word itself looks somewhat red for me(?)), but thats just my pereption. . .interesting what you wrote.

Japanese, when sung, even has some similarities with italian singings, I feel! Which brings me to the love of many Japanese about italian operasongs, (but the Koreans are as good in this, btw). . .
And to think about the simple idea of do re mi so la ti do, isn't it close to Japanese in a way?

I once knew a japanese female opera singer, for italian operas, as I just remember. . .I forgot her name, but she was quite famous (and beautifull). . .she sang together with our voice workshop group about throat singing(overtones). . .led by a musician from Rome. . .
👍
 
For those who enjoyed the song "Mizu no Madoromi" posted by Caster. How did you perceive the lyrics - was it still wood-toned? Origa is a Russian singer whom I love, though know little about her background. She sings in Japanese, Russian, English, and Latin - quite an eclectic selection of languages that she uses to make beautiful songs. In any case, my question is whether or not her Japanese sounds the same to you as a native speakers? I don't know how much of it is her voice, or her Russian accent, but her Japanese sounds more nasally to me and almost like bag pipes, but very smooth, flowing bag pipes.
 
I would say Japanese sounds like percussion because of the fact of the fact things are done in syllables.
It sounds watery because it's soft while being in syllables.

The fact that things are "ka" "ku" "ki" "ta" "gi". That's what makes Japanese like that.

This is a difficulty to address subject, but I did my best. If I'm being music or language ignorant, I apologize.
 
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