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The Separation of the Japanese and Korean ethnic groups

canadian_kor

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As someone who is interested in the histories and cultures of both nations, one of the things that I have always pondered about is the genetic/racial origins of both groups. Many anthropologists, linguists, and geneticists argue that Koreans and Japanese are quite close to each other racially. There is some truth to this since both groups descended from the Siberian Tungus group. However, the racial composition of modern Japanese and Koreans is another matter. If anybody has been in both countries one will realize that the Japanese tend to have more facial hair, higher nasal profiles, deeper-set eyes, pronounced foreheads, etc. than Koreans in general. This is likely due to the Ainu and Polynesian admixtures added to the predominantly Tungusic genetic stock. Koreans have not only been minimally influenced by Ainu and Polynesian genes, but had the Koguryo and Mongol influences to contend with. The Koguryo people spoke an Altaic language that was actually different from the Paekche and Silla languages (though the latter two are distantly related to the former). The point being is that the reason why many Koreans look like classic Mongoloids (thin eyes, flat faces, high cheekbones, paddy eyelids, etc.) is because of the influences of Mongols and northern tribesmen throughout the centuries. If Koryo had erected a "great wall" at the Yalu River region Koreans today would physically look significantly different now (more like Chinese or Japanese). Actually, you'll find that many Koreans have non-classical Mongoloid traits (you will find this mostly among upper-class people or city dwellers). Also, if Korea did not have these intrusions from the north the modern languages of both Japan and Korea would have been more similar than what linguists contend. Any thoughts or disagreements on this will be welcome.
 

tokapi

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One of the enduring mysteries of Japan is the origin of the language ... Indiana University-Bloomington linguistics professor Christopher Beckwith's relatively new tome Koguryo: The Language of Japan's Continental Relatives offers a fascinating and plausible solution to the enduring origin puzzle ... Based on the work of Gisaburo N. Kiyose, Beckwith proposes a somewhat radical immigration narrative for the Wa. He puts the original Koguryoic homeland in Liao-Hsi (present day Liaoning) on the coast of Northeast China ... Beckwith's theory pretty much puts the Japanese and Koreans as distant relatives - cousins at best and definitely not the "brothers" as Diamond would like them to be ... At best, the modern day Koreans have a minority strain of Koguryo in their DNA and language. (emphasis added)

Christopher Beckwith's research is not news to me,as you can see, and I do think Beckwith is on the right path in suggesting a much stronger affinity between Koguryo and the Japanese than can be established by modern Korean nationalists intent on claiming this long-estinguished kingdom as "theirs", but that Koguryoic contributed virtually nothing to modern-day Korean does not in any way establish either that its speakers were an insignificant portion of the ancestors of living Koreans or that Koreans and Japanese are therefore more distantly related than has been assumed.

Oh, and while we're on the topic of Koguryo, Korean-Japanese genetic relatedness to its peoples notwithstanding, I find it utterly absurd that modern-day Koreans should lay claim to the ruins of Koguryo which happen to lie behind China's borders just because what was left of the kingdom in its declining days happened to be conquered by Shilla. Such reasoning seems as tenable to me as the Danish laying claim to English ruins from the Danelaw period, and an Italian declaration of suzerainty over ruins left behind by the Romans in all of Continental Europe would have far more legitimacy to it than such Korean maneuverings:the nail in the coffin is that as Beckwith's work indicates, Japan would have an even stronger claim to ancient Koguryo's heritage than the Koreans themselves, even by the warped standards favored by Korean nationalists.

Source: The Origins of the Japanese People
 

tokapi

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Another iron-clad fact,it's recorded in both Korean & Chinese history annals.

China's Tang Dynasty forced relocation of nearly 500,000 " Koguryo 高句麗 " subjects to central regions of China included Koguryo's warrior-general ' Yeongaesomun-淵蓋蘇文 ' and his son & grandson' burial mounds recently discovered in Luoyang city of Henan province ( China ).

Luoyang - Wikipedia

10-30,000 probably went to Japan.Anyone with the surname of Koma in Japan are descended from Koguryo.

Silla took in 50,000 of defeated Koguryo population
 

tokapi

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Daniel Kane and Mark Byington, probably the two best experts on early Korean History in North America.

The Mohe (or Malgal, Mogher) were a Tungusic people in ancient Manchuria.They are considered the ancestors of medieval Jurchen and modern-day Manchus.

Mohe - Wikipedia

Anyways, essentially Reckel says that Parhae ( 渤海 or Bohai ) did indeed a significant Mohoe element to their population, it had to as the Tang took most of Koguryo’s population and relocated them to the central plain as well as areas as remote as today’s Burma. Out of the 600,000 households of the original Koguryo Kingdom, there was probably only 100,000 households left in Southern Manchuria, not enough to defend against Tang, Silla and Kihtan tribesman. The Mohe changed sides during the Tang/Koguryo wars. Traditional allies to the of Koguryo, the Mohe sided with Tang, but once they figured out that the Tang didn’t really have any plans to develope or effectively rule the Northeast, they decided to revolt, using the distraction that the Kihtan provided to do so. Da Go Wang (or Tae Jo Young in Korean pronounciation) was a Mohe chieftan who was also a Koguryo general. He was ethnically Mohe, not Koguryo.

Goguryeo - Wikipedia

Parhae | historical state, China and Korea

How do I know this ? Well Dr. Reckel notices that early Parhae tombs contained more Mohe artifacts than Koguryo ones. However, as time went by, the Mohe element started to disappear as the Koguryo ruling class solidified their hold on the government. Mohe names disappeared from the diplomatic registers to Japan and Mohe artifacts disappeared from royal tombs. Mohe artifacts also began to be pushed outward to areas away from the cities and on to the northern fringes of the kingdom. Sure, Parhae was a heavily sinofied kingdom, but probably no more then say the Paekje kingdom was or the Unified Shilla Kingdom was becoming at the same time. Anyways, the remaining Koguryo population in the decades after the Tang/Koguryo wars was not enough to create a viable kingdom. The Mohe poplulation did not have the literacy and sophistication to create a kingdom and would not be able to do so until the 17th century when they evolved into the Manchus and defeated the Ming Dynasty.

Several Mohe tribes that Da Jo Yeong ( 大祚榮 ) had influence over joined with these Koguryo remnants to create Jin-Guk, the state of Jin in 698 A.D. In 713 A.D., after beating several Tang attemps to eliminate him, Dae Jo Yeong ( 大祚榮 ) declared himself King of Koguryo (高句麗). The name Bohai or Parhae in Korean was given by Tang. Parhae sometimes addressed themself as Koryo-Guk ( or Gaoliguo in Chinese) to Japan, probably because Japan was the only nation that would recognize them with that name as Tang certainly would not given that they had spent so much time and resources in eliminating Koguryo in the first place. The Parhae king went as far as to tell the Japanese Emperor, "We have restored the lost territory of Koguryo (高句麗) and have preserved the remaining customs of the Puyo."

Go of Balhae - Wikipedia
 

Davey

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Tokapi.... I wonder when you are going to put some own input instead of just copying articles from the net. :eek:
 

tokapi

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Well ... my assessment of all reading materials I gathered over the years,I concluded Japanese & Koreans are only genetically related on Tungus heritage ( Yemack = Koguryo & Baekje ) which is equals to 24% + as suggested in the video posted in other threads.

* According to Chinese history records, Huimo ( Yemak 穢貊 ) was formed by two peoples ( Korean nationalists staunchly claimed these were their ancient ancestors ).One being Hui (穢) and the other being Mo (貊). Hui (穢) people used to populated around China's Shangdong peninsula. Mo (貊) people used to populated around the northern edge of China's Hebei and Shangxi provinces. Some branches of Hui (穢) people and Mo (貊) people migrated to Manchuria. After their arrival to the southern Mancuria and North Korea, some clans of Hui and Mo merged and evloved into a new tribal alliance of Huimo ( Yemak 穢貊 ) at the eastern side of North Korea.Some of Hui and Mo populated a large territory of southern and south-central Macnhuria. They did not merged into a single people initially and live independently in Southern Manchuria. Maybe I should change the wording of Huimo system into Hui-Mo system just to make a distinguishing from that single Huimo tribal alliace in the eastern North Korea.Later,they became the Puyo 夫餘 clans ( predecessor of Baekje or Paekche in southern Korea peninsula ).

http://translate.google.com/transla...%E8%B2%8A&hl=en&rlz=1T4SKPB_enUS232US233&sa=G

http://oniazuma.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/idenshi/

Oh ..ultra-nationalist Koreans romanticized that Yamato Royal House was founded by the Puyo people.Then,Japanese Royal House originated in China.
 

tokapi

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There is some truth to this since both groups descended from the Siberian Tungus group. Any thoughts or disagreements on this will be welcome .

You have to remember that the so-called Tungus groups were also migrants from China's Shandong peninsula,Hebei,Henan and other Chinese provinces.

Except Mohe 靺鞨,The Mohe (or Malgal ) were a Tungusic people in ancient Manchuria.They are considered the ancestors of medieval Jurchen and modern-day Manchu people,actually the real indigenous people of present day NE region in China.They have always lived there long before Hui-Mo ( Yemak 穢貊 ) .Very few Mohe left fatherland of China's NE region ( Manchuria ) for Korea peninsula or Japan as no documented massive migration(s) .

The real indigenous Siberian tribe Evenks ,they're closely related to some Native American tribes on the West Coast & Canada.Both Japanese & Koreans are not descended from them.

Evenks - Wikipedia


Reference post#6

[ Hui people used to populated around China's Shandong peninsula.Mo people used to populated around the northern edge of China's Hebei and Shangxi provinces.Some branches of Hui (穢) people and Mo (貊) people migrated to Manchuria. ]
 

tokapi

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The point being is that the reason why many Koreans look like classic Mongoloids (thin eyes, flat faces, high cheekbones, paddy eyelids, etc.) is because of the influences of Mongols and northern tribesmen throughout the centuries.

Modern day Korean population mostly of Mongol heritage plus Tungus & ancient northern Chinese ( 東夷 Dong-Yi stock ) oppose to Japanese have more diversed gene pool ( Siberian,東夷 Dong-Yi stock Tungus,SE Asian,etc ).

Most Japanese acknowledge their Jomon and Yayoi roots.Those have really chinky eyes and a broad face,often say " I must have strong Yayoi roots " or if they have a thick beard or curly hair, would say " I have strong Jomon roots ". As for the origins of the Jomon and Yayoi,they would often say " Jomons.. somewhere from the south " and Yayoi as " somewhere in Siberia, that direction ".Typical Japanese really don't care about the specifics or any updated information on genetic research.
 

tokapi

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The general Koreans historical view about Japanese Yayoi people originated from ancient Korean race can trace to Japanese colonial justification of Korea peninsula.

These 3 main slogans propagated legitimacy for annexation of Korea peninsula by Japanese Imperialists.

1) 日鮮同祖論
2) 任那日本府說
3) 南朝鮮經營
 

tokapi

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Parhae 渤海 Kingdom was not nearly as Korean as most Koreans would hope it would be. The Mohe contribution was undeniable and significant.I also believe that Koguryo is not as Korean as modern Koreans think it is as well.

The fact of the matter is that a majority of the population of Bohai/Barhae was of Somo Malgal stock (who would eventually be one of the constituents of the Jurchens). The sum of Chinese, Russian and Japanese scholarship collaborates on this.Japanese buddhist monks who visited Bohai/Barhae remarked " Malgal 靺鞨 are many, but aboriginals (Koguryo people) are few." It is only some Korean scholars who insist that the majority of the population is Koguryo stock.

Fast forward,Mongol invasion & occupation of Korea peninsula in the 13th century-14th century ALTERED the genetic make-up of Korean population according to S Korea's national archived 朝鮮史 ( Chosun Dynasty Annals ).So,it's more accurate that modern day Korean population is much closer to Mongolians than Japanese.

* To add my humble knowledge of Koguryo's descedants (who were born and raised in China because Koguryo parents moved there by force ) after its Kingdom had collapsed.One of the most famous men was Lee Jung Ki -李正己-He was the 節度使 that governed 淸州 area (modern Shandong peninsula 山東半島 ) according to both 新.舊唐書 ( new & old Tang history chronicles ).His son 李納 founded independence Kingdom of 齊 in Shandong 山東半島 and it had lasted to the next two more generations by 李師古 and 李師道.

Shandong Peninsula - Wikipedia

Shandong - Wikipedia


The Japanese being a mix of aboriginal Jomon (ancient Ainu) and Northeastern Asian 東夷 Dong-Yi Tungus stock.Most of the Koguryo were absorbed into China,not present day Korea.The Koguryo language was also quite divergent from present day Korean and ancient Shilla Korean,but looks much like ancient Japanese.

The belief is the ancestors of the Wa, who populated Japan (including Ryukyus) came from present day Liaoning 遼寧 province in NE China and their most closely related cousins lived in Koguryo.

Liaoning - Wikipedia

Amazon product

http://www.pliink.com/mt/marxy/archives/2007/01/koguryo-japanese.html

background of the author:

"Christopher I. Beckwith (born 1945) is a professor of Central Eurasian Studies at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana.

He received his Ph.D. degree from Indiana University in Uralic and Altaic Studies (1977).

He specializes in Asian language studies and linguistics, and in the history of Central Eurasia. He teaches Tibetan and Central Eurasian languages and Central Eurasian history."
 

tokapi

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Here is a DNA mapping identifies prodominate Siberian origin for Japanese & Chinese origin Dong-Yi stock 山東半島東夷.Very little Mongol genes in general modern day Japanese population even though they're of northern Mongoloid stock.

Both Japanese & Koreans are mainly bonded by the Chinese origin 山東半島東夷 Dong-Yi stock 濊貊族 Hui-Mo ( Yemack ) later split into Puyo 夫餘 ( Baekje Kingdom ) & 高句麗 ( Koguryo ).

Koreans & Japanese also rely on this Chinese history source to identify their ancestors' origin in China's Shandong peninsula ( 山東半島東夷 )

http://translate.google.com/transla...%E8%B2%8A&hl=en&rlz=1T4SKPB_enUS232US233&sa=G

Here is a 1988 anthropology research concentrated in Siberia & China's Shandong peninsula conducted by Japanese.

http://www.um.u-tokyo.ac.jp/publish_db/Bulletin/no27/no27011.html

I think those Japanese also do have some " bloodlines " from indigenous Tungusic tribes of present day China's NE region,shaved forehead was a common practice of one ancient Khitan tribe ( look at pre-modern Manchu males ) and ( pre-adoptation of Chinese culture ) traditional cultural traits very similiar to those peoples than Chinese origin 山東半島東夷族.

Shandong Peninsula - Wikipedia

Shandong - Wikipedia

I want to point out another fact as you all can see on this DNA map,modern day Koreans & northern Han-Chinese share most gene markers than between Koreans & Japanese because many northern Chinese have Mongol ancestors.
 

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tokapi

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木田貞吉 Teikichi Kida ( 1871-1939 ) advocated 日鮮同祖論 mutual ancestry theory of Japanese & Koreans.Later expanded by Egami 江上波夫氏 ( 江上説は河内王朝が北方民族・扶余によって建てられたというものですね ) to the romantic notion of " Warrior Horseriders Theory (騎馬民族征服説) " .It was used to justify the annexation of Korea, and which was described as one of notorious ideological tool of Japanese Imperialism in post war time.

Very funny, that some contemporary Koreans and Western journalists & scholars use this refer to the connection of Ancient Japan and Ancient Korea as a device of enduring Japanese chauvinistic nationalism.

Who is distorting history here?

Japanese & Korean have identical grammar ? How come when I try to translate Korean into Japanese using translation software, I see lots of grammatical mistakes ? How come it seems to be that when Koreans use Japanese, there seems to be distinct grammatical errors among them ? There’s no language that has “identical grammar”. Heck, even Okinawan and the standard Tokyo language has different grammars. Or close yet, Kansai and Kanto dialects.

Modern day Korean is Han-based 韓 language,Han of 三韓 Samhan statelets in southern Korea peninsula.
 

tokapi

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I was vacationing there early this year for 10 days,I found out the facial feature of native Japanese is very diverse.You will find some people who certainly retain North Mongoloid feature ( single eyelid, pointed nose, very light skin complexion, small lip, taller stature @ 5'7" for males ).On the other hand,you will come across some individuals who look like Eastern/Southern Chinese.Also,there are local folks who have Malays/Polynesian feature ( Big round eye, snubbed nose, thick lip, dark skin complexion, smaller stature @ 5'5" for males ).

Less than 20% of today's Korean population share aforementioned physical & facial similiarities with Japanese therefore both nationalities are mostly of different ethnic origins

The main physical attributes in my mind that seperate Koreans from many East Asians ( not just the Japanese ) is a squarish face, high cheek bones and the lack of a epicanthic fold (about 70% of Koreans don't have the epicanthic fold).These are Northern features and something common in Mongolians.. I've talked to Korean missionaries who went to Mongolia and they are amazed at how similar Koreans and Mongolians are.The main difference is that according to these missionaries is that Mongolians tend to be bigger and stockier.LA area,Mongolians are often work as valet parkers.I've talked to a few and they agree that Koreans and Mongolians look alike and they think they can blend in pretty well in Koreatown as long as they don't say anything.
 
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Another iron-clad fact,it's recorded in both Korean & Chinese history annals.
China's Tang Dynasty forced relocation of nearly 500,000 " Koguryo 高句麗 " subjects to central regions of China included Koguryo's warrior-general ' Yeongaesomun-淵蓋蘇文 ' and his son & grandson' burial mounds recently discovered in Luoyang city of Henan province ( China ).

10-30,000 probably went to Japan.Anyone with the surname of Koma in Japan are descended from Koguryo.
Silla took in 50,000 of defeated Koguryo population
If your numbers are correct, then we have more than 4 million Goguryo people still remaining in Manchuria. What happened to them?

Plus, when Balhae fell, there was a massive exodus to Goryeo, which was when the Koreans as we know it today formed.


Japanese & Korean have identical grammar ? How come when I try to translate Korean into Japanese using translation software, I see lots of grammatical mistakes ? How come it seems to be that when Koreans use Japanese, there seems to be distinct grammatical errors among them ?

Interesting. I have almost no problem with Korean-Japanese translations, given that the overall language IS similar.
 

tokapi

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deleted post ... freeze period on participation in Korean-related threads
 
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This "freeze period" waiting for more contributions from the peanut gallery? Or do you have more to report. I, for one, am interested. I've got nothing to say, but that's because I'm sort of taking it all in.
 

Adulado

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The essence of my model is as follows. I contend that
the Jōmon culture (c. 10,000–300 BCE) on the Japanese
archipelago was the product of Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian
people, while the Yayoi culture (c. 300 BCE-300 CE) was the
product of Kaya (Karak) people from the southern Korean
peninsula together with Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian
aborigines. The proto-Japanese people, speaking proto-
Japanese language, were formed during the Yayoi period. I
contend that the Kaya dialect of the Korean language provided
the basic structure of the proto-Japanese language although
lexically (in loan words) and phonologically (in sound), the
influence of Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages was
substantial.
I also regard the early tomb culture (c. 300-375 CE)
as an extension of the Yayoi culture.
The late tomb culture (c. 375-675 CE) was, however,
brought about by the Yamato kingdom, the first unified state
on the Japanese islands that was newly established at the end
of the fourth century by the Paekche people from the Korean
peninsula. Syntactically (in patterns of word arrangement) and
morphologically (in systems of word formation), the similarity
between the Korean and Japanese languages was very much
strengthened. However, the lexical and phonological influence
of the Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages cast a long
shadow on the subsequent evolution of the Japanese language.

Therefore, by the early ninth century at the latest, due to ever
increasing lexical, semantic (in meaning) and phonological
differences, the people of the Korean peninsula and the people
of the Japanese islands could no longer directly communicate
with each other without interpreters.

........................................................................................................
 

pipokun

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I contend that the Kaya dialect of the Korean language provided
the basic structure of the proto-Japanese language although
lexically (in loan words) and phonologically (in sound), the
influence of Ainu and Malayo-Polynesian languages was
substantial.

What was the Korean language you want to imagine?
The most boring book about the J/K culture I've ever read was a book, "You can interpret Manyoshu with the Korean language!!!" by a Korean author.

The Korean language in the book is the present Korean language spoken in South Korea... I heard you can find communication gaps even in the present Korean language, South Korean, North Korean, and Korean Chinese...

If possible, please enlighten me if you can find the written historical records about the Kaya dialect. I also heard it is nearly impossible to imagine what your great Silla people spoke with few examples remaining in some less than 100 words
 

allq

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You can't compare Korean language of today to Japan's modern language, as both have changed siginficantly. You can also throw out Chinese influences as they just loan words in both langauges.

You have to compare old Korean and old Japanese words, and I've heard that there are some similarities between the two. Also, since vocabularies are mutable whereas grammar is not, you should look to the similarities to grammar as well. It's probably much more important than comparing vocabulary.

For archeological references, I recommend Jon Covell's Korean influence on Japan: Japan's Hidden History. The examples, especially Korean artistic influences on scuplture and architecture is quite startling. I'm surprised that Japanese generally know nothing about this.
 
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I do not know Korean representative building and culture well.
What kind of Korean traditional culture is there?
 

allq

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^I recommend the above book if you can find it for pictures of ancient Korean artifacts. Early Korean art is influenced by shamanism--and even when Korea adopted Buddhism it retained still shamanistic symbolistic emblems in the art. Unfortunately I can't provide links or pictures since I only have a limited number of posts.
 

caster51

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at first, they are not archeologists at all.
they are art historian..
at least, they are nameless as archeologists because it does not hit him in google at all in english world.

サービス終了のお知らせ
I read his article.
I knew how crazy😊
 

allq

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You can't refute content of the book i.e. the actual theories and picture comparisons, therefore you make personal attacks against the authors. Address the content, not the individual.
 

caster51

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according to historic ruins of village..
it is very interesting..

we can know there was few ppl living in korean peninsula compering to japan


there was a few mokkan in korea like the japanese one.why?
mokukanJPEG-1.jpg
 

caster51

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korean is new? mongoloid
the Japanese is Proto-Mongoloid

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Karafet_et_al.1997.pdf

If Japanese emperor's have D2 that korean does not have at all , It seems that the patrilineal descendant in the emperor family has the majority of a Japanese man.
The emperor family reigns up to the present time as the monarch for 1500 years or more from the
5th century at least, and a lot of princes became commoners.
 
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