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Some questions I missed...

rquethe

黒い剣士
20 Mar 2004
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I took the practice test that is kind of like the JLPT level 4 one. I got 82% which is disappointing for me since I thought I was better. But here are the questions I missed:

3. ニ椎槌湛ニ暖ニ停?ーニ停?懌?堙?( ツ)窶堙ー 窶堋ス窶堙冷?堙懌?堋キツ。
I put suupuツ but the correct answer is hirugohan. Why can't you eat soup a restaurant? I don't know why this is wrong.

23. 窶堋ソ窶堋ソ窶堙 窶堙懌?堋「窶?窶堋ウ 窶堙溪?堋ェ窶堙銀?堙ーツ( ツ)ツ、窶堋オ窶堙ア窶堙披?堙ア窶堙ー 窶堙ヲ窶堙昶?堙懌?堋キツ。
Simple enough mistake. I didn't know what verb was right for putting on the glasses or whatever.

24. 窶堋ェ窶堙≫?堋ア窶堋、窶堙 窶堙懌?堙?狸ニ停?ーニ湛窶堋ェツ( ツ)窶堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。
I put tatte and the correct answer is warete. What is garasu? Glass? even though it doesn't make any since, I thought it was talking about something called window grass and I thought tatte was appropriate since you can also say "ki o tatteimasu." What does the sentence say with the correct verb?

28. 窶?窶堋ス窶堙懌?堋ェ 窶堋「窶堋ス窶堋「窶堙ア窶堙??堋キ窶堋ゥツ。窶?窶堋キ窶堙ィ窶堙ーツ( ツ)窶堙吮?堋、窶堋ェ 窶堋「窶堋「窶堙??堋キ窶堙ヲツ。
I put "totta" for took, because I only know kusuri to mean medicine. And I don't think of medicine as being strictly something you eat or drink, but something that you take. So how can I know that the answer is nonda?

Those were the questions I missed from the vocabulary section. I missed more on the Grammar section.

8. 窶堋ッ窶堋ウ 窶ーツスツ( ツ)ツ食窶堙冷?堙懌?堋ケ窶堙ア窶堙??堋オ窶堋スツ。
I put "wo" here because it seems to be that taberu is a verb which takes and object. Nani is an interrogative pronoun or something right? So it is like an object. So it seemed a natural choice. So why then is the correct answer "mo?"

9. 窶堙、窶堋、窶堙 ニ椎槌湛ニ暖ニ停?ーニ停?慊( ツ)窶堙寂?堙ア窶堋イ窶堙坂?堙ア窶堙ー ツ食窶堙冷?堙懌?堋オ窶堋スツ。
Here I used "ni" though I understand why "de" is the correct answer. It's just that I still don't know the proper usage of these two particles to know when to use one over another. Why not "ni?"

12. 窶堙ュ窶堋ス窶堋オ窶堙 窶堙ヲ窶? 窶堋ア窶堋、窶堋ヲ窶堙アツ( ツ)窶堋ウ窶堙ア窶堙帚?堋オ窶堙懌?堋キツ。
I believe I put "ni" here too although the correct answer is "wo." But that doesn't make sense to me. You don't walk the park. You walk thru it or at it. And "wo" doesn't imply either of those two things as far I know.

18. 窶堋ア窶堙ア窶堙寂?堙ア 窶堋、窶堋ソ窶堙鳴( ツ)窶楼窶堙可、窶認窶堋セ窶堋ソ窶堙 窶?窶堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。
I'm actually being introduced to this structure just now in my next lesson. So I don't feel any problem with not getting it right since I didn't know anything about how to do it or not.

20. 窶堋ス窶堋「窶堙凪?堋、窶堋ェ 窶藩??堙懌?堋キ窶堋ゥ窶堙ァツ、窶堋キ窶堋ョツ( ツ)窶堙吮?堋、窶堋ェ 窶堋「窶堋「窶堙??堋キ窶堙ヲツ。
Learned this a few years ago, didn't use it, and forgot it. What's the rules for this structure?

21. 窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙 窶堙??堋、窶堋ォ窶堙・窶堋、窶堙?( ツ)窶堋オ窶堙。窶堋オ窶堙ア窶堙??堋キツ。
Correct answer is totta. Why not totte?

28. ツ「窶堋ゥ窶堋コ窶堙 窶堙??堋、窶堙??堋キ窶堋ゥツ。ツ」ツ「窶?窶堙ィ窶堋ェ窶堙??堋、窶堋イ窶堋エ窶堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。ツ( ツ)窶堙遺?堙ィ窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋スツ。ツ」
I put yokuni instead of yoku. I know why I put yokuni and I know why it is wrong though.


I know this is a lot to go thru. But any helpful comments are EXTREMELY welcome and I'd be thankful for.
 
rquethe said:
I took the practice test that is kind of like the JLPT level 4 one. I got 82% which is disappointing for me since I thought I was better. But here are the questions I missed:

3. レストランで( )を たべます。
I put suupu but the correct answer is hirugohan. Why can't you eat soup a restaurant? I don't know why this is wrong.
Well, by 2:1 you drink soup - not eat it. Not sure that's the reason though.

rquethe said:
24. がっこうの まどガラスが( )います。
I put tatte and the correct answer is warete. What is garasu? Glass? even though it doesn't make any since, I thought it was talking about something called window grass
Er, "window glass" vs "window grass" which do _you_ think sounds likely? ^^v

rquethe said:
28. あたまが いたいんですか。くすりを( )ほうが いいですよ。
I put "totta" for took, because I only know kusuri to mean medicine. And I don't think of medicine as being strictly something you eat or drink, but something that you take. So how can I know that the answer is nonda?
1. You 'のむ' kusuri - even if it's pills.
2. 'totta' may mean 'took' but 'take medicine' is to eat / drink it not to pick it up.

rquethe said:
8. けさ 何( )食べませんでした。
I put "wo" here because it seems to be that taberu is a verb which takes and object.
Note that 'mo' also can mark the object. 'wo' gets overridden.

rquethe said:
Nani is an interrogative pronoun or something right? So it is like an object. So it seemed a natural choice. So why then is the correct answer "mo?"
'nanimo' is 'anything' / 'nothing'
nani mo tabemasen deshita "Didn't eat anything"

rquethe said:
9. ゆうべ レストラン( )ばんごはんを 食べました。
Here I used "ni" though I understand why "de" is the correct answer. It's just that I still don't know the proper usage of these two particles to know when to use one over another. Why not "ni?"
'de' = doing stuff at a location
'ni' = being at a location / going to / going from

rquethe said:
12. わたしは よく こうえん( )さんぽします。
I believe I put "ni" here too although the correct answer is "wo." But that doesn't make sense to me. You don't walk the park. You walk thru it or at it. And "wo" doesn't imply either of those two things as far I know.
'wo' does. You don't know far enough.

rquethe said:
21. これは とうきょうで( )しゃしんです。
Correct answer is totta. Why not totte?
totte would be a connective form, totta would be modifying
the noun しゃしん.
 
PaulTB said:
'wo' does. You don't know far enough.

A handy thumbnail comparision Buntaro posted on another thread that makes the need for "wo" here slightly clearer. Walk through a park, a lot of people walk/are walking on the sidewalk ("Hodou wo aruite iru hito ga takusan iru), etc. Just as in English "Walk the park" or "walk the sidewalk" is much closer in meaning than going towards them.

Although I'm still not sure about the "entire" length of a river part....

kawa ni oyogu = swim into a river (e.g., from the ocean)

kawa e oyogu = swim towards a river (not exactly entering it)

kawa de oyogu = swim around in a river

kawa o oyogu = swim the entire length of a river
 
Elizabeth said:
Although I'm still not sure about the "entire" length of a river part....
Makes more sense when you realize
川を泳ぐ
is nearly always used with
鯉のぼり
 
18. 窶堋ア窶堙ア窶堙寂?堙ア 窶堋、窶堋ソ窶堙鳴( ツ)窶楼窶堙可、窶認窶堋セ窶堋ソ窶堙 ツ・窶堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。
I'm actually being introduced to this structure just now in my next lesson. So I don't feel any problem with not getting it right since I didn't know anything about how to do it or not.

20. 窶堋ス窶堋「窶堙凪?堋、窶堋ェ 窶藩??堙懌?堋キ窶堋ゥ窶堙ァツ、窶堋キ窶堋ョツ( ツ)窶堙吮?堋、窶堋ェ 窶堋「窶堋「窶堙??堋キ窶堙ヲツ。
Learned this a few years ago, didn't use it, and forgot it. What's the rules for this structure?
Now what structures are these again? :confused:
 
Elizabeth said:
Now what structures are these again? :confused:
In reverse order
20. たいふうが 来ますから、すぐ( )ほうが いいですよ。
V 方がいい (or whatever).
V is generally (although not always) past tense unless it is negative.
e.g. すぐ逃げたほうがいいですよ。
(don't know what the actual verb was).
vs. 飲むなら運転しないほうがいいですよ。
18. こんばん うちへ( )前に、友だちにあいます。
V 前に
V is (I think) not past tense
e.g. 帰る前に

(Or at least that's what my memory tells me without checking :p
 
PaulTB said:
In reverse order
20. 窶堋ス窶堋「窶堙凪?堋、窶堋ェ 窶藩??堙懌?堋キ窶堋ゥ窶堙ァツ、窶堋キ窶堋ョツ( ツ)窶堙吮?堋、窶堋ェ 窶堋「窶堋「窶堙??堋キ窶堙ヲツ。
V 窶「テサ窶堋ェ窶堋「窶堋「 (or whatever).
V is generally (although not always) past tense unless it is negative.
It happens a lot where it is past in the affirmative and not with negative, though. I've never been able to decipher a pattern. 😊
 
V 窶楼窶堙
V is (I think) not past tense
e.g. 窶ケA窶堙ゥ窶楼窶堙閏/QUOTE]
Certainly it isn't in that case, but what about something with Kaeru/tsuku jikan no mae ni, before someone else's arrival time, I will meet a friend....It's an awkward example, though, of course. I'm just giving rquethe (and myself) a hard time. 😊 :p
 
Elizabeth said:
It happens a lot where it is past in the affirmative and not with negative, though. I've never been able to decipher a pattern. 😊
Er, isn't that exactly what I said?
 
PaulTB said:
Er, isn't that exactly what I said?
I really shouldn't be writing like this at work :D. I was thinking that the way I initially learned it was the reverse. But anyway, it is sometimes the opposite of what you suggested and I haven't been able to decipher a pattern.
 
Elizabeth said:
I really shouldn't be writing like this at work :D. I was thinking that the way I initially learned it was the reverse. But anyway, it is sometimes the opposite of what you suggested and I haven't been able to decipher a pattern.

Sometimes the non-negative is not past tense. Which is why the 'not always' was in my statement.

Given that
ない方がいい 'about' 12,700 google matches
is over 60 times as common as
なかった方がいい 'about' 50 Google matches

I think my 'unless it is negative' holds out (note that in the case that it is negative my statement only implies that it is not generally past tense).

As my statement includes no absolutes I'd be interested to know how you can show "sometimes the opposite of what you suggested".

The opposite of
"V 方がいい (or whatever).
V is generally (although not always) past tense unless it is negative."
 
PaulTB said:
Sometimes the non-negative is not past tense. Which is why the 'not always' was in my statement.

Given that
窶堙遺?堋「窶「テサ窶堋ェ窶堋「窶堋「 'about' 12,700 google matches
is over 60 times as common as
窶堙遺?堋ゥ窶堙≫?堋ス窶「テサ窶堋ェ窶堋「窶堋「 'about' 50 Google matches

I think my 'unless it is negative' holds out (note that in the case that it is negative my statement only implies that it is not generally past tense).

As my statement includes no absolutes I'd be interested to know how you can show "sometimes the opposite of what you suggested".
OK--sorry I brought this up now. :sorry: And although your statement, which I was simply restating, could also be read as for the negative case it could be either past or present (just generally not past as in the affirmative), it obviously is overwhelmingly present. Anyway, I was thinking more of the positive presenting both cases, even accounting for the ratio possibly being as onesided as the negative, and was more interested in usage than numbers. And so here's the only explanation I found in short order., on this site. So no vouching for accuracy. 😊 And apologies again for any confusion.


timwerx.net
 
Elizabeth said:
That doesn't actually answer the implied question:

In the (exception) where present non-negative verb is used before 'hou ga ii' what is the significance and/or where should it be used?

If I recall correctly I seem to remember hearing that such is used for emphasis, but I may be wrong.
 
PaulTB said:
That doesn't actually answer the implied question:

In the (exception) where present non-negative verb is used before 'hou ga ii' what is the significance and/or where should it be used?

If I recall correctly I seem to remember hearing that such is used for emphasis, but I may be wrong.
No, it is a dodgy explanation. But it's all I could come up with in a minute or two and at least provides some evidence so that everyone is on the same wavelength that both ways are in fact possible. Which I'm still not clear on with the negative, since not everything is posted by fluent or native speakers.
 
Elizabeth said:
...so that everyone is on the same wavelength that both ways are in fact possible.
Of course both past tense and non-past tense are possible for the non-negative. Otherwise I wouldn't have said generally (but not always).

As a rough guide there are approaching as many 窶堙ゥ verbs as other endings put together. (and of course 窶堙? 窶堙 and 窶堙 won't have a 窶堋ス for past tense).

Given that
窶堙ゥ窶「テサ窶堋ェ窶堋「窶堋「 has 6,130 Google hits
and
窶堋ス窶「テサ窶堋ェ窶堋「窶堋「 has 55,700 Google hits

then past tense to present tense is at least a 4:1 ratio - enough for a 'generally (but not always)' in my book - and far from the 'probably not good Japanese' indicated by the 60:1 ratio against past tense for negative verbs in that position.
 
PaulTB said:
Of course both past tense and non-past tense are possible for the non-negative. Otherwise I wouldn't have said generally (but not always).
Yeah, I was just verifying for myself I guess since I got about a 1:10 ratio on romaji.....plus trying to get more details on usage.
 
Well, by 2:1 you drink soup - not eat it. Not sure that's the reason though.

I guess that was just a narrowmindness on my part. Even when I pick the bowl up and drink out of it which I do commonly, I still consider that eating. I think of drinking as limited to "beverages" for thirst.

Er, "window glass" vs "window grass" which do _you_ think sounds likely?

I was thinking it might be some sort of mold type plant that grows around windows. lol... Well what does the whole sentence mean? I am breaking the school's window glass? Still doesn't make sense to me.

1. You '窶堙娯?堙? kusuri - even if it's pills.
2. 'totta' may mean 'took' but 'take medicine' is to eat / drink it not to pick it up.

I guess this another case of my narrowmindedness. I was actually skeptical of using totta because I've been warned by teachers to not translate it literally for every case where in English you could "take" something.

'nanimo' is 'anything' / 'nothing'
nani mo tabemasen deshita "Didn't eat anything"

Doh! I know that. I just wasn't thinking. Silly me.

And lastly, how does "窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙 窶堙??堋、窶堋ォ窶堙・窶堋、窶堙??堙??堙≫?堋ス窶堋オ窶堙。窶堋オ窶堙ア窶堙??堋キ"ツ translate? Is it, "This is a picture I took of Tokyo?"

Thanks for the reply. It was informative and I will do do better next time :)
 
rquethe said:
Well what does the whole sentence mean? I am breaking the school's window glass? Still doesn't make sense to me.

窶堋ェ窶堙≫?堋ア窶堋、窶堙 窶堙懌?堙?狸ニ停?ーニ湛窶堋ェツ( ツ)窶堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。

窶堙ュ窶堙ェ窶堙??堋「窶堙懌?堋キ indicates an ongoing state. So, "The school's window(s) are broken."

And lastly, how does "窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙 窶堙??堋、窶堋ォ窶堙・窶堋、窶堙??堙??堙≫?堋ス窶堋オ窶堙。窶堋オ窶堙ア窶堙??堋キ"ツ translate? Is it, "This is a picture I took of Tokyo?"
This is the picture I took at Tokyo.
 
PaulTB said:
窶堙ュ窶堙ェ窶堙??堋「窶堙懌?堋キ indicates an ongoing state. So, "The school's window(s) are broken."


This is the picture I took at Tokyo.
I'm breaking glass I think is probably best ツ"ニ狸ニ停?ーニ湛窶堙ー窶堙ュ窶堙≫?堙??堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。ツ"ツ


And pictures of Tokyo....窶愬停?ケナセ窶堙固ステ環真窶堙??堋キツ。ツ ツ
 
PaulTB said:
窶堙ュ窶堙ェ窶堙??堋「窶堙懌?堋キ indicates an ongoing state. So, "The school's window(s) are broken."
This may be light years ahead of Level 4, but 窶堙ュ窶堙ェ窶堙ゥ, the passive conjugation, is also the one that allows you to deeply frustrate your Japanese listener by being able to say things like "The window fell and broke" 窶倪?ケ窶堋ェ窶忿窶堙ェ窶堙??窶樞?堙ェ窶堋スツ。
More common than you would imagine....:D
 
Elizabeth said:
I'll take that--the false passive, then. Is warette
Too many t's there.
Elizabeth said:
arimashita possible to make the role of an actor more ambiguous?
I think the 割れてあります version implies somebody has broken them.
 
PaulTB said:
Too many t's there.

I think the ナ?窶樞?堙ェ窶堙???窶堙ィ窶堙懌?堋キ version implies somebody has broken them.
I was thinking that as well. You'd need an intransitive form such as the examples on that site or "Kowareru" and I don't believe there is anything for waruツ、 is there? ツ
 
The lamp fell and broke (or, is broken) = Sutando ga taerete kowareta. It wasn't pushed it simply fell. Maybe it was placed along an edge.

The paper bag got wet and broke/tore. = Kami-bukuro ga nurete yabureta. Maybe it was left in the gutter to rot.

The eggshell broke and a chick came out. Tamago ga warete ....

The rope/guitar string broke in the middle. Tsuna/Gen wa mannaka de kireta. Any bright ideas for this phenomenon? :p
 
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