Shoplifting

[thomas]

Interesting article about shoplifting in Japan (by the Asian Times):

When crime is blamed on the victim

We Japanese are proud of our low violent-crime rate: one-fifth the number of murders per 100,000 population as in the United States, one-eighteenth the number of rapes, one-twelfth the number of serious assaults, one-thirtieth the number of armed robberies. That's still too much criminal violence. But what worries me more is that it's been rising a lot in recent years, especially among juveniles; that so-called minor crimes are way up; and that our attitude to that is to make stupid excuses, to blame "society" - in other words, to blame the victims. [...]

At present, the most worrying issue for bookstores in Japan has nothing to do with declining sales and the loss of profit caused by the recession. Shoplifting, mostly committed by young schoolkids, is the most serious problem. Big bookstores in Tokyo are suffering losses from this crime worth several hundred million yen a year. On average, about 2.5 million yen (US$21,250) worth of books are stolen per large store per year. What do schoolkids steal? Comic books. We Japanese love and are proud of our comic strips - the world's best - and we probably produce more of that stuff than the rest of the world combined. But why do kids steal them? Japan has been in economic recession for years, but not many people really suffer as a result of it. Parents give their children enough spending money. But why spend it on comic books if you can easily steal them and the store owners get blamed when they call the police? Indeed, why not turn the whole thing into a lucrative little side business? Many high-school students now sell the stolen books to others or even to adults who ask no questions. [...]

=> Asia Times - When crime is blamed on the victim

 

[cookie85]

Shoplifting is a common problem in Japan. Housewives and apparently "normal", not poor people also get caught committing it. I've read that Shoplifting or Kleptomania can be caused by a personality disorder, or a non-treated grieving/mourning. In the case of kids, they might want to get attention from their parents and not just money.

 

[PaulTB]

Vocabulary note of the day.

Be very sure not to get manbiki (まんびき) mixed up with manzuri (まんずり).

 

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

おもわず検索してしまいました

も～ おげれつ'''

 

[sakurastar]

I've read that Shoplifting or Kleptomania can be caused by a personality disorder, or a non-treated grieving/mourning

Maybe a personality disorder causes it, but i really dont think "non-treated" greiving/mourning does. People steal for many reasons, and not just there's "something wrong with them". It is a mystery though why Japanese kid steal. I mean, they're pretty well-off etc. Hmmm...

 

[Dollporn]

Yeah, it seems many of them have huge amounts of money to spend.
I should start a "school kids stealing books" trend in Norway. Only we'll steal school books, 'cause they're so expensive and absolutely nessescary to our education.
I don't really think the majoroties of the shop lifters do it because of any mental disorder.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I think most kids, to a large extent shoplift because it is often seen as "cool", daring or rebellious. When I used to go to boarding school a lot of the girls in my house used to shoplift because it was seen as cool, and most of these girls had a lot of cash to spend, so it wasn't because they needed money. I myself have never stolen anything from a shop ever in my life.

Personally, I think its a really low down thing to do especially if you are not poor, its the sort of thing people associate with chav's over here in England, if you get caught shoplifting I think you deserve everything you get as otherwise, I don't see why most decent people have to gain money in honest ways to buy things when others are stealing things for free and getting away with it. Plus shoplifting in youth is often associated with young people then going onto bigger and better-paid crimes later in life having gained confidence from shoplifting and not getting punished for it, and I feel if you stop people when they are on the small stuff, then you get fewer people turning to bigger crimes later in life.

I think the shops can be to blame in some ways to a certain extent; if you don't invest in a decent CTV camera system and arrange it properly around your store and encourage your staff to catch shoplifters by giving them extra pay, then I think you can't blame your staff if you get things stolen all the time. Some pubs, clubs and shops now days will not even let you go into their places if you are wearing a hat/cap of some sort or have a hoody with the hood up so you can't avoid your face been seen by the CTV cameras in case you feel tempted to do something illegal- I think this is a totally justified action by the pubs, clubs or shops as otherwise there is little point in investing in a CTV camera system if it can't see your customers.

Non-treated grieving issues though? I think that is a pretty ridiculous excuse; everybody knows stealing is wrong, just because a close one dies does mean its any more justifiable. Being honest, I don't really see how the grief over the loss of a loved one can suddenly make someone think "hm, I really hate my life now I am so depressed, I know! I will make myself feel better by stealing even though I've never done it before!" etc., if you have issues with grief or a stealing addiction, you should either see a doctor for help or seriously practice on gaining more self-discipline.

I think there is a lot of satisfaction in working hard for your money and spending it legally rather than someone going out and cheating the system so they can rip someone off and get something for free having learned no self-discipline or self-respect.

I'm sure everyone here can associate with the feeling of frustration, anger and upset having had something stolen from them, particularly if it was something they were very attached too or had worked very hard for.

 

[anjusan]

I have not heard of the grieving issue... I think it is related to kids having too much time on their hands and being bored... and too little supervision... and a lack of proper punishment... if they thought they'd get the book thrown at them... for a little thing like shop lifting I am sure they would think twice about doing it...

 

[deadhippo]

@Tokis-Phoenix

Life is not as black and white as you seem to think. Not every child really knows it is wrong to steal. We mostly learn what is right and wrong from our peers. Most people have done things they weren't sure about or thought was wrong to impress someone else or to make a friend. Loneliness does strange things to a person. As do any number of emotions. If you have heartbreak in your life you will probably find yourself doing things you wouldn't have believed yourself capable of before. I'm not saying that you will steal, just that you will probably surprise yourself. If you have never suffered extreme pain its a little hard to understand.

Regarding the grieving issues your opinions (no offense intended) are quite naive. Those people who have lost something emotionally are probably not stealing things make themselves feel better. The opposite may be true but it is generally described as a cry for help. They usually want to get caught so their loved ones or family will understand how much they are suffering.
They steal because they think things can't get any worse, a misguided as that may be. And the talk of self respect. That is something that is lacking. You are looking down on these people and calling them low. They are probably thinking the same things or worse about themselves. Of course many people who shoplift as kids go on to do worse crimes as adults, but many don't. In other cases the future is much bleaker where the self loathing culminates in masochism or even suicide.

If you want to know more or if you would like to help some of these people your local Good Samaritans is a good place to start.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

@Tokis-Phoenix

Life is not as black and white as you seem to think. Not every child really knows it is wrong to steal. We mostly learn what is right and wrong from our peers. Most people have done things they weren't sure about or thought was wrong to impress someone else or to make a friend. Loneliness does strange things to a person. As do any number of emotions. If you have heartbreak in your life you will probably find yourself doing things you wouldn't have believed yourself capable of before. I'm not saying that you will steal, just that you will probably surprise yourself. If you have never suffered extreme pain its a little hard to understand.

Regarding the grieving issues your opinions (no offense intended) are quite naive. Those people who have lost something emotionally are probably not stealing things make themselves feel better. The opposite may be true but it is generally described as a cry for help. They usually want to get caught so their loved ones or family will understand how much they are suffering.
They steal because they think things can't get any worse, a misguided as that may be. And the talk of self respect. That is something that is lacking. You are looking down on these people and calling them low. They are probably thinking the same things or worse about themselves. Of course many people who shoplift as kids go on to do worse crimes as adults, but many don't. In other cases the future is much bleaker where the self loathing culminates in masochism or even suicide.

If you want to know more or if you would like to help some of these people your local Good Samaritans is a good place to start.

I know life is not black and white, but my point is, is that I often see cases of people getting off quite lightly for crimes because people sympathise for their case to a certain extent. Justice is getting lighter and lighter every day, community service and other punishments shorter and shorter.
Now maybe I'm too old fashioned for my age, but I think if you get caught for shoplifting or any other similar small scale crime, I think you should get what you bargained for when you took that risk to steal.

I do think you have to be pretty short-sighted not to know stealing is wrong, and you only have to think of what it would be like to get something you liked stolen from you to understand its not a pleasant feeling and thus must not be pleasant for anyone else.

But I understand there are a lot of cases of where "I wanted to be accepted at school socially as I was very depressed with myself and had low self-confidence and started to steal to impress people I wanted to accept me into their groups" or "I got kicked out of school at a young age, and my life went downhill from there as I had nothing to do so I got into drugs and then started to steal to pay for my addiction" or "My parents were really controlling and strict on me 24/7 I felt like I was suffocating under their regime, stealing was a way out for me where I felt I could escape and be someone else for once who isn't under their control and breath" etc...I'm sure all of these cases are a cry for help of some sort, but...

Sure i can sympathise for any of these people in these situations, i totally agree with giving them help with the source of their issues that caused them to commit their acts, but i still think they should get punished like everyone else for what they did.

If you punish them but don't attempt to sort out their stealing issues emotionally, there's a fair chance they will commit the same illegal acts again when they have some emotional issues again at some point in their life.

But if you help someone with their emotional issues but don't punish them, then there's still the same chance they will commit the same acts again because there is little in their minds for them to fear the consequences, there is no real barrier of reality that tells them in their mind that they shouldn't commit these acts whether the chances of them getting caught is high or low.

I don't look down on people who steal, but there's a difference with doing something that is low and being low yourself. Maybe it is just me, but I don't think you can have too much self-respect for yourself when stealing as if you are honestly doing it because of emotional issues and not just doing it for the fun or thrill of it, you must feel bad about yourself committing an act that you don't really want to do deep down. I'm not saying that harshly either.

I'm not really sure on your exact opinion on this, but you seem to feel that every stealing situation is a sympathy case of some sort on the person committing the act, and thus they shouldn't get punished as much as everyone else or at all?

 

[deadhippo]

but you seem to feel that every stealing situation is a sympathy case of some sort on the person committing the act and thus they shouldn't get punished as much as everyone else or at all?

I dont know why you think this and to tell you the truth I don't even think this sentence makes sense.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I didn't mention anything about punishment for these crimes.
I honestly think each case should be dealt with as an individual case and sympathy or lenience should be given to the cases that the judge feels are deserving. so basically everybody should be treated equally.

My point was that some of these people are not in a position to make rational decisions, not able to control their impulses. And you are saying its "pretty short sighted not to know stealing is wrong". Do you think that they are thinking about their future? In a lot of cases they think they have no future already. That's why they don't care about committing such acts.

Non-treated grieving issues though? I think that is pretty ridiculous excuse, everybody knows stealing is wrong, just because a close one dies does mean its any more justafiable, and to be honest i don't really see how the grief over the loss of a loved one can suddenly make someone think "hm, i really hate my life now i am so depressed, i know! even though i've never done it before!" etc, if you have issues with greif or a stealing addiction you should either see a doctor for help or seriously practice on gaining more self discipline.

This is the part I was criticising.
1 You think they know they need help
2 You think they know there is help available.
3 You think they have enough self esteem to thik that someone will help them.
4 You think they realise they are depressed.
5 You think they conciously think to themselves - "I will make myself feel better by stealing"

In my opinion that's pretty naive. Reading your opinion makes me believe you have led a very sheltered existance. But to be honest in my youth I was quite naive too and still am I guess.

Maybe its just me, but i don't think you can have too much self respect for yourself when stealing as if you are honestly doing it because of emotional issues

That was my point..no self respect, so self-esteem, possibly self loathing

You said that you new a lot of girls in your school stole even though they didn't need to. I wanted to say that money is not the only issue. Anybody from any walk of life can steal for reasons even they can't understand.

@ anjusan

I have not heard of the grieving issue... I think it is related to kids having too much time on their hands and being bored... and too little supervision... and a lack of proper punishment... if they thought they'd get the book thrown at them... for a little thing like shop lifting I am sure they would think twice about doing it...

I'm sure its true but I don't think you should paint them all with the same brush.
Try to remember the others whose life is much harsher than being bored.
Children who are ignored by their parents.
Physically/verbally/sexually abused kids.
Bullied kids.
Kids under pressure to succeed.

Any number of things can affect kids in a bad way psycologically while their personalities are still forming and make them turn to crime.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I dont know why you think this and to tell you the truth I don't even think this sentence makes sense.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I didn't mention anything about punishment for these crimes.
I honestly think each case should be dealt with as an individual case and sympathy or lenience should be given to the cases that the judge feels are deserving. so basically everybody should be treated equally.

My point was that some of these people are not in a position to make rational decisions, not able to control their impulses. And you are saying its "pretty short sighted not to know stealing is wrong". Do you think that they are thinking about their future? In a lot of cases they think they have no future already. That's why they don't care about committing such acts.



This is the part I was criticising.
1 You think they know they need help
2 You think they know there is help available.
3 You think they have enough self esteem to thik that someone will help them.
4 You think they realise they are depressed.
5 You think they conciously think to themselves - "I will make myself feel better by stealing"

In my opinion that's pretty naive. Reading your opinion makes me believe you have led a very sheltered existance. But to be honest in my youth I was quite naive too and still am I guess.


That was my point..no self respect, so self-esteem, possibly self loathing

You said that you new a lot of girls in your school stole even though they didn't need to. I wanted to say that money is not the only issue. Anybody from any walk of life can steal for reasons even they can't understand.

@ anjusan



I'm sure its true but I don't think you should paint them all with the same brush.
Try to remember the others whose life is much harsher than being bored.
Children who are ignored by their parents.
Physically/verbally/sexually abused kids.
Bullied kids.
Kids under pressure to succeed.

Any number of things can affect kids in a bad way psycologically while their personalities are still forming and make them turn to crime.

Im sorry but what exactly do you disagree or have anything to comment on as to my last post? You've basically just repeated every i just said and that was,
a. Kids who steal need emotional help but also need to be punished.
b. Stealing isn't black and white and neither is the world.

Do you have much to reply to in my last post other than you don't understand my last statement? Or am i missing your point of discussion some where?

 

[deadhippo]

I dont hink its neccessary to quote the whole post and yea I guess youre missing the point. Maybe you should just read my posts again more carefully or come back when you are a little more mature.

 

[goatz]

Maybe you should just read my posts again more carefully or come back when you are a little more mature.

... i don't think that was really nice.

There can be just so many reasons for people to steal. Not every household has the same amount of income.. and no general assumptions can be made to apply to an entire group of thieves. But yea.. it is pretty sad how much money is lost, i feel bad for the bookstore owners =__=;;..

 

[deadhippo]

... i don't think that was really nice.

It wasn't that I was trying to be rude but to be honest if he really took the time to read my posts he would find the answers to his questions. In an earlier reply he seems to think I wrote more than I did and in the later reply he thinks I wrote less. His indignation is misplaced and his response is very immature.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I dont hink its neccessary to quote the whole post and yea I guess youre missing the point. Maybe you should just read my posts again more carefully or come back when you are a little more mature.

Im sorry but now you're realy flaming, if you can't have a debate without throwing insults almost every post you do then maybe it is you is imature- i honestly don't know why you have to keep repeating that i am imature just because you don't agree with or can't see my point of veiw-its a completely pointless statement saying that i must have led a sheltered life because i do not completely agree with your opinions when you know nothing about me or even havn't bothered to check my profile to see that i am a she and not a he!
The "hm, i really hate my life now i am so depressed, i know! I will make myself feel better by stealing even though i've never done it before!" statement was also sacastic which you obviously didn't notice...
Of course many people who are depressed don't always seek help but i never stated that that was their fault(which you seemed to act like i had said that), of course almost everybody knows when they need help but wether they accept it or consider that notion that is there issue, and one more thing;


"I'm sure its true but I don't think you should paint them all with the same brush.
Try to remember the others whose life is much harsher than being bored."

When have i ever said that all or even most of stealing was due to boredem or that every case of stealing was the same as the next or that all thieves are the same??

 

[deadhippo]

I dont think i was flaming and i wasnt trying to insult you
i was just making observations which after reading your next post i still hold to be true
maybe you should reread your own posts though and you may understand what im saying

anyway for me this is end of discussion

if you think i have been flaming please report my posts but i dont think i have
im sorry if i have offended you

 

[Kinsao]

Hey guys... tsk tsk... ^^

I don't think anyone has said anything stupid here. There are some points which all seem to make sense to me:

1. "I think most kids to large extent shop lift because it is often seen as "cool", daring or rebellious." -- maybe not "most" kids, but certainly it is an issue.

2. "if you get caught shop lifting i think you desearve everything you get" -- perhaps that was something that Deadhippo took issue with in attitude, because it doesn't sound very compassionate towards people who steal for one of complex reasons and who need help rather than condemnation. But I think at the core, is the principle that many would agree with, basically that shoplifters, whatever their problem(s), shouldn't be allowed to "get away with it" and should be punished in some way that could act as an effective deterrent.

3. "I think it is related to kids having too much time on their hands and being bored... and too little supervision... and a lack of proper punishment..." -- and that is yet another possible reason why people steal...

4. "Not every child really knows it is wrong to steal." -- that is true. There is some issue with education in "social" and "moral" issues... not all parents teach that or set example, and how is it taught in schools? How do the kids learn?

Sure i can sympathise for any of these people in these situations, i totally agree with giving them help with the source of their issues that caused them to commit their acts, but i still think they should get punished like everyone else for what they did.
If you just punish them but don't attempt to sort out their stealing issues emotionally, theres a fair chance they will commit the same illegal acts again when they have same emotional issues again at some point in their life.
But if you help somone with their emotional issues but don't punish them, thens there's still the same chance they will commit the same acts again because there is little in their minds for them to fear the consequences

That makes sense to me, I find that to be a balanced view and not offensive.

The point about grieving I feel it's a "red herring" rather. It could be any difficult emotional problem which gave people low self-esteem or other mental/emotional difficulty that could make them more likely to steal. I think it is better just to take "grieving" as an example of something it could be, rather than a closed case.

And...

"we'll steal school books, 'cause they're so expensive and absolutely nessescary to our education."

... not everyone can afford things they need. You are told you must have school books, right? But how much money does it cost? Loads! I guess people feel justification to steal it, because they never wanted it for themselves but were told "you must have it".