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Ru-verbs, past tense, & Jya - quick question

skj91

先輩
21 Oct 2008
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using たべます as an example. what would the past tense affirmative and negative be?
would they be
past tense affirmative: じゃたべました or たべじゃありました
past tense negative: じゃたべませんでした or たべじゃありませんでした
 
Are you using じゃ as the casual form of では? I am not sure what you are trying to say there.... Could you give some examples in complete sentences?
 
There is no need to use じゃ anywhere.

たべる
たべました = ate
たべませんでした = didn't eat
 
I don't know why you're using じゃ in any of them unless it's some non-standard dialect.
 
There is no need to use じゃ anywhere.
たべる
たべました = ate
たべませんでした = didn't eat

Ok thank you. I see now that I had been looking in the wrong paragraph in the book for ru-verbs. Ru-verbs conjugate same way they do in present tense. But i still have a question about the Jya part on irregular verbs. same question but pertaining to irregular instead of ru. How do you conjugate the the past affirmative and negative tenses for irregular verbs other than です ?

sorry for the confusion, i meant to ask about irrugular verbs not ru.

please use benkyoshimasu and kuru and conjugate to past tense?
 
I still don't understand what じゃ has to do with anything.

. How do you conjugate the the past affirmative and negative tenses for irregular verbs??????

please DO NOT USE DESU in your answer.

I'm asking how you conjugate irrugular verbs THAT ARE NOT desu or where desu is only part of the word. how much clearer can i make it? the thing is i have only the following example to go by for irregular verbs:


Affirmative Negative
present tense desu Jyaarimasen
past tense deshita Jyaarimasendeshita


And that's IT! that's the only mention of irregular verbs what-so-ever. So what happens to the irregular verbs kuru and benkyoosuru when you want to make them present negative and past tense affirmative and negative?
 
. How do you conjugate the the past affirmative and negative tenses for irregular verbs??????
please DO NOT USE DESU in your answer.

I'm asking how you conjugate irrugular verbs THAT ARE NOT desu or where desu is only part of the word. how much clearer can i make it? the thing is i have only the following example to go by for irregular verbs:

Affirmative Negative
present tense desu Jyaarimasen
past tense deshita Jyaarimasendeshita
And that's IT! that's the only mention of irregular verbs what-so-ever. So what happens to the irregular verbs kuru and benkyoosuru when you want to make them present negative and past tense affirmative and negative?

It is not for verbs, it is for na-adjectives and nouns.
shizuka + ja + nai+desu
gakusei + ja + nai+desu
By the way, no verbs end with desu. Verbs end with masu in the polite form. Desu comes with adjectives (both i and na adjectives) and nouns.


suru ==> shi+nai
kuru ==> ko+nai

Ru verbs are going to have verb stem + nai.
U verbs are going to have the final vowel changed from u to a, like "yomu" changes into "yoma"+"nai".
 
hmmm but... wait so in Japanese, nouns and adjectives have tenses too?
wow, no wonder I'm confused by this. In English verbs are the only words where tenses matter.
 
hmmm but... wait so in Japanese, nouns and adjectives have tenses too?
wow, no wonder I'm confused by this. In English verbs are the only words where tenses matter.

That's not true. English has tense with adjectives and nouns.

She is pretty.
She was pretty.

She is a student.
She was a student.

"is" roughly corresponds to "desu" and "was/were" to "deshita" (plain form conjugations are different).
 
Verbs that end with only う change to わ. かう→かわない

Yes. (w)u=>wa. Thanks😌

By the way, Skj91 san, what kind of textbook are you using? This is basic stuff. If you do not have a chart of conjugation for plain present negative and plain past negative, you should really consider buying a decent textbook that includes conjugation tables.
 
oh oh oh! ok, nevermind. I think I understand now. You're saying is that Jya or not Jya depend on the nouns/adjectives used but the key point I've been missing, until now, is that desu is the only verb that will ever be conjugated to to anything that does use Jya since desu is essentially the same 'is' which is essentially the as '=' and it only appears in sentances where equivalencies are made: X は Y です item1=item. And equivalency statements only ever use です or います/あります. Am i getting the idea close yet?
 
That's not true. English has tense with adjectives and nouns.

She is pretty.
She was pretty.

She is a student.
She was a student.

"is" roughly corresponds to "desu" and "was/were" to "deshita" (plain form conjugations are different).

No, only English verbs have tense. What's changing there is the copula, "to be," not the adjective. Notice that "pretty" is "pretty" in both cases -- same with "student."

Another (perhaps) interesting tidbit: English verbs don't have future tense. They only have past and non-past. Future is shown by the use of modal verbs (some form of "will").

oh oh oh! ok, nevermind. I think I understand now. You're saying is that Jya or not Jya depend on the nouns/adjectives used but the key point I've been missing, until now, is that desu is the only verb that will ever be conjugated to to anything that does use Jya since desu is essentially the same 'is' which is essentially the as '=' and it only appears in sentances where equivalencies are made: X は Y です item1=item. And equivalency statements only ever use です or います/あります. Am i getting the idea close yet?

It's a bit more complex than that, but basically yes.

By the way, I just thought I'd point out that Japanese only has two fully irregular and one semi-irregular verb. くる and する are the fully irregular ones, and いく/ゆく is the semi-irregular one (I know it's a bit of a strange classification, but it makes sense when you learn the forms).
 
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That's not true. English has tense with adjectives and nouns.
She is pretty.
She was pretty.
She is a student.
She was a student.
"is" roughly corresponds to "desu" and "was/were" to "deshita" (plain form conjugations are different).


the noun 'she' remains the same regarldless of tense and regarldess of what adjective is used. the adjectective 'pretty' remains the same regardless of tense and regardless of the noun, regardless of the verb, regardless of anything else anywhere in the sentance. it is the verb only which changes according to tense and it never has any relation to any adjectives or nouns. 'is' always changes to 'was' for past tense, doesn't matter what the adjectives or nouns it's used with are. all that matters, all that changes, when the tense changes is the verb.

From what
 
By the way, I just thought I'd point out that Japanese only has two fully irregular and one semi-irregular verb. くる and する are the fully irregular ones, and いく/ゆく is the semi-irregular one (I know it's a bit of a strange classification, but it makes sense when you learn the forms).
That's an interesting observation. By the way, "愛する" or one Chinese character plus "suru" verbs like "接する", "要する", etc are irregulars too (they behave like half su-ending verb half suru verb).
 
By the way, I just thought I'd point out that Japanese only has two fully irregular and one semi-irregular verb. くる and する are the fully irregular ones, and いく/ゆく is the semi-irregular one (I know it's a bit of a strange classification, but it makes sense when you learn the forms).

Ok well that's good news, lol. Still though, how would I say something like:

I did not study in the library yesterday

considering that to study is a compound word formed from the the noun 'studies' しゅかだい and the verb irregular verb 'to do' する which conjugates to ですin present form or します in masu form which conjugates to negative form じゃありません and past tense negative form じゃありませんでした. where do i stick the べんきょう part in the negatives past and present tense for a word like べんきょうします?

and is there a similar oddity for くる? itis there a じゃあいきません じゃあいきませんでした?
or is it simply いきません いきませんでした?
 
the noun 'she' remains the same regarldless of tense and regarldess of what adjective is used. the adjectective 'pretty' remains the same regardless of tense and regardless of the noun, regardless of the verb, regardless of anything else anywhere in the sentance. it is the verb only which changes according to tense and it never has any relation to any adjectives or nouns. 'is' always changes to 'was' for past tense, doesn't matter what the adjectives or nouns it's used with are. all that matters, all that changes, when the tense changes is the verb.
From what

I simply said English has tense with adjectives and nouns. I did not mean adjectives and nouns have tense inflection.😌
 
That's an interesting observation. By the way, "愛する" or one Chinese character plus "suru" verbs like "接する", "要する", etc are irregulars too (they behave like half su-ending verb half suru verb).


ya those! how do i handle those when negative past and present tense is needed. the text only ever mentions する alone so for all the forms of irr verb examples, i don't know how to put the sentence together for combo suru words. the whole jya arimasu thing totally throws me off
 
Ok well that's good news, lol. Still though, how would I say something like:
I did not study in the library yesterday
considering that to study is a compound word formed from the the noun 'studies' しゅかだい and the verb irregular verb 'to do' する which conjugates to ですin present form or します in masu form which conjugates to negative form じゃありません and past tense negative form じゃありませんでした. where do i stick the べんきょう part in the negatives past and present tense for a word like べんきょうします?
and is there a similar oddity for くる? itis there a じゃあいきません じゃあいきませんでした?
or is it simply いきません いきませんでした?

Seriously, don't you have a conjugation chart or some sort for this purpose?:? Skj91-san, you really need to invest in buying a good textbook with conjugation tables.

ya those! how do i handle those when negative past and present tense is needed. the text only ever mentions する alone so for all the forms of irr verb examples, i don't know how to put the sentance together for combo suru words. the whole jya arimasu thing totally throws me off
Strange.:eek: Usually textbooks have conjugation patterns for the irregular verbs suru and kuru.

Types of questions you keep asking in this thread really make me wonder that you don't have a decent textbook.

using たべます as an example. what would the past tense affirmative and negative be?
would they be
past tense affirmative: じゃたべました or たべじゃありました
past tense negative: じゃたべませんでした or たべじゃありませんでした
This type of stuff has to be in any type of textbook.
 
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That's an interesting observation. By the way, "愛する" or one Chinese character plus "suru" verbs like "接する", "要する", etc are irregulars too (they behave like half su-ending verb half suru verb).

Ah, yes. I forgot about those. Yeah, those can get tricky too. In fact, I just spent some time looking them up. Those are a bit different than する and くる, though, because they're sort of halfway between サ行変格活用動詞 and サ行動詞. I guess they fall more in line with 行く.

[Edit] Ha, just looked back and saw you had typed this: "...'接する', '要する', etc are irregulars too (they behave like half su-ending verb half suru verb)." (Emphasis mine) Sorry to repeat that; I'm not sure what I was reading there....
 
It is not for verbs, it is for na-adjectives and nouns.
shizuka + ja + nai+desu
gakusei + ja + nai+desu
By the way, no verbs end with desu. Verbs end with masu in the polite form. Desu comes with adjectives (both i and na adjectives) and nouns.


suru ==> shi+nai
kuru ==> ko+nai

Ru verbs are going to have verb stem + nai.
U verbs are going to have the final vowel changed from u to a, like "yomu" changes into "yoma"+"nai".

what? i have no idea what you're talking about. you're assuming i've been studying Japanese for alot longer than i have. let's see began very first day of learning Japanese mmmm... 5 weeks ago? about that. you're talking about things that really have nothing to do with my question as my question is only concerning the most basicof concepts.


By the way, Skj91 san, what kind of textbook are you using? This is basic stuff. If you do not have a chart of conjugation for plain present negative and plain past negative, you should really consider buying a decent textbook that includes conjugation tables.

Genki

An Integrated Course in Eementary Japanese: Course I textbook and workbook (they are the white w/ orange text and orange w/ white text pair).

The homework is to make such a chart.

Types of questions you keep asking in this thread really make me wonder that you don't have a decent textbook.


This type of stuff has to be in any type of textbook.

I already said in like my second or third post that i had been reading under the wrong section for that. Or rather, i was reading about irrugular verbs and thought i was reading about ru-verbs. that question is long dead gone as it's not even in the right context.
 
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Ok well that's good news, lol. Still though, how would I say something like:

I did not study in the library yesterday

considering that to study is a compound word formed from the the noun 'studies' しゅかだい and the verb irregular verb 'to do' する which conjugates to ですin present form or します in masu form which conjugates to negative form じゃありません and past tense negative form じゃありませんでした. where do i stick the べんきょう part in the negatives past and present tense for a word like べんきょうします?

and is there a similar oddity for くる? itis there a じゃあいきません じゃあいきませんでした?
or is it simply いきません いきませんでした?

I'm going to try to put this simply: であります shortened to です, so でありません is the negative form. But, because it's so often contrastive, は gets in there, making ではありません. The では gets contracted to じゃ, so you get じゃありません. That is for the copula only. When you're dealing with verbs (and adjectives, when you get there) forget about じゃ. It doesn't belong at all.

します is just like all other verbs in polite form: します -> "do," しません -> "don't do," しました -> "did," しませんでした -> "didn't do." This is the same as becki_kanou's post mutatis mutandis:

たべる
たべました = ate
たべませんでした = didn't eat

I'll add たべます -> "eat," たべません -> "don't eat."
 
The homework is to make such a chart.
So, we are doing homework with you??😌 I'm sure your teacher told you how to conjugate the irregulars. That's one of the first things teachers teach for verb conjugation. Didn't you take notes? I'm leaving this thread....
 
Seriously, don't you have a conjugation chart or some sort for this purpose? Skj91-san, you really need to invest in buying a good textbook with conjugation tables.

Again, THE HOMEWORK IS TO MAKE THAT CHART OURSELVES! We have a template with dictionary form only on it the homework IS the conjugation chart, why would it have the answers already done for us if the point is to have us learn it through creating our own chart?


Strange. Usually textbooks have conjugation patterns for the irregular verbs suru

Again (again) I already said... No the only irregular verb which they have full conjugation of all the forms for is suru. Hence my question in the first place!!! If i had any of example to go by which mapped out the sentance structure of compound suru verbs then I wouldn't be here asking.

by the way i still have heard no straightforward simple answer to the question what is past tense negative form of べんきょします one word answer is all i need. that's all i've been needing this whole thread (excusing the the inquiry about ru-verbs which i was mistakingly taking as irregular verbs. that, though, is solved, the question this thread is inquiring about, however, is not.)
 
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