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Question about verbs immediately following te-form

wallofdeath

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"神学,悪魔学を研究する過程で教義が体系化して生まれた,新興宗教的な側面があるからである."

In this sentence, is 教義 the subject for 生まれた or does 生まれた modify the noun that appears after it? Another thing I'd appreciate an opinion on in this sentence: would 新興宗教的な側面 be better expressed as "new religious aspects" or "aspects similar to those of a new religion?"
 

PaulTB

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wallofdeath said:
"神学,悪魔学を研究する過程で教義が体系化して生まれた,新興宗教的な側面があるからである."

In this sentence, is 教義 the subject for 生まれた or does 生まれた modify the noun that appears after it?
Why not both?
wallofdeath said:
Another thing I'd appreciate an opinion on in this sentence: would 新興宗教的な側面 be better expressed as "new religious aspects" or "aspects similar to those of a new religion?"

It's a bit of a difficult sentence to parse, too many clauses. 😌

I've got to go now - maybe have a look later.

[EDIT]
Well this is rather rough but ...

神学、悪魔学を研究する過程で教義が体系化して生まれた、新興宗教的な側面があるからである
Thus the process of research into theology and demonology systemised doctrine bringing forth an aspect like unto a new religion religion.
 
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Scrivener

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"This was due to the "new religion" aspect that had arisen because of codification of doctrines in the course of research into theology and demonology."

Or systematization is OK in place of codification, it depends on what actually happened.

I think umareta is connecting to sokumen.

I think the "new religion" thing is talking about that phenomenon of religions in Japan that have arisen in the last few decades but I'm not sure.
 

wallofdeath

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Thanks, that's very enlightening. It's interesting that neither of you translated "側面がある" literally-- I was thinking that it might be better to incorporate it. Here is how I have it worded now (+ the preceding sentence):

Although the cult religious organization to which Dahlia belongs, as previously
mentioned, possesses a unique system that is wholly separate from any religious
doctrine that exists in reality, its concepts and terms were appropriated from
other religious terminology for the sake of convenience. This is due to the fact
that there is a "new religion" aspect that arose with the systematization of
doctrine through the process of researching theology and demonology.

Does it make sense? I wonder if I could put it as "an aspect typical of new religions..." Also, here's another sentence from the same book with a similar structure:

"オープニングの路地奥に消えていくシェリルというのは,アレッサの悪夢がハリーの夢を侵食して生まれたもの" =

"Cheryl's disappearance into the alleyway in the opening is something that came about
because Alessa's nightmare had encroached upon Harry's dream"

I know I reworded it a bit, but does the basic meaning seem to be intact?
 

Scrivener

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Yes, systematization is better since it is a fictional religion, if I understand correctly.

Your new translation seems fine. You might want to say "opening scene" in case someone reading the English thought you meant "the opening of the alleyway" (not likely but...) If you want to get away from the Japanese structure (which often comes out as static and passive when translated literally) you could say "In the opening scene, Cheryl disappeared into the depths of the alleyway because Alessa's nightmare encroached into Harry's dream."

[Actually, thinking about it a bit more... They have deliberately reversed the usual cause -> effect order of Japanese for emphasis, so even though English is already effect -> cause, it makes sense to use an emphasizer like "the reason Cheryl disappears into the alleyway in the opening scene is that Alessa's nightmare encroached into Harry's dream.]

For the earlier one, now there is a bit more context, maybe: "This was because it turned into a kind of "new religion" as [we] systematized the doctrines in the course of [our] research into theology and demonology."

Probably the first sentence was emphasizing the "unique system" aspect rather than the "for the sake of convenience aspect", so although I haven't seen the original, I wonder if it was more like:

"Concepts and terms for the religious cult to which Dahlia belongs were appropriated from other religious terminology for the sake of convenience, but it has a unique system of doctrines that is wholly separate from any that exist in reality, as previously mentioned."

That would make more sense with the following sentence, but of course it is a total guess on my part.
 
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wallofdeath

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Man... that makes a lot of sense of course and as you can probably tell, the way "new religion" is used in this sentence went right over my head-- looking again at the first sentence of the paragraph, I think that "unique" should probably be "original" but as far as I can tell, the way I worded it still reflects the general sentence structure:

"ダリアの属するカルト教団は,前述の通り現実にあるいかなる宗教教義からも完全に隔絶した独自の体系を持つが,概念や用語を便宜上他の宗教用語などから流用することがある."
 

Scrivener

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Yeah, maybe the original sentence is explaining both things - on the one hand why it is an original system, and also why it uses terms from other religions. Like you could start it "the reason it turned out this way was that..."

(1) It's only a "ga", which is not a very strong form of "but", and (2) it says "koto ga aru" - that's only a "sometimes", but you were more definitive in your translation.

Like:

The religious cult to which Dahlia belongs has an original system [of doctrines] that is completely separate from the doctrines of any real-life religion, as said earlier, although sometimes re-used concepts and terms from other religions for the sake of convenience. It turned out this way because it took on a "new religion" aspect as systematized the doctrines in the course of [my] research into theology and demonology.

There's an echo of 体系 and 教義 in both sentences that should be preserved, though it's awkward to use "system" in English...

ダリアの属するカルト教団は,前述の通り現実にあるいかなる宗教教義からも完全に隔絶した独自の体系を持つ が,概念や用語を便宜上他の宗教用語などから流用することがある.神学,悪魔学を研究する過程で教義体系化して生まれた,新興宗教的な側面があるからである.

That's where you can see that he's mainly talking about the "originality" aspect when he gives the explanation in the second sentence. I think it makes more sense for "the systematization of doctrines giving rise to a new religion aspect" to be connnected to "possesses an original system of doctrines" rather than to "I sometimes used terms from other religions for the sake of convenience", if you see what I mean.
 

wallofdeath

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Well-- in defense of the way I'd decided to translate "ことがある"-- both Jim Breen's database and dic.yahoo.co.jp seem to indicate that it can also be used to mean something like "it's the case that "..." happened," and if by chance you've ever played Silent Hill, you might have noticed that literally all the religious terminology is borrowed from the Kabbalah, the Lemegeton and the Grimoire so to say that terms were sometimes borrowed from other religions seems a bit understated.

Regardless, thanks a lot for giving these sentences so much attention, I think I've finally got a handle on this paragraph now.

Not to turn this into the "help me translate Silent Hill Koushiki Guidebook" thread, but if anyone is inclined to give an opinion on a few other things it would be appreciated:

"ここではハリーの行動の裏側で起こっていた『サイレントヒル』の真実に迫る."

What is the function of the particle で in this sentence?

"邪神の卵が母体を守るために生き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ."

The verb that corresponds to "邪神の卵が..." here is actually the one in parenthesis-- is that accurate?
 

PaulTB

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wallofdeath said:
"ここではハリーの行動の裏側で起こっていた『サイレントヒル』の真実に迫る."

What is the function of the particle で in this sentence?
Five dollars, same as in town.

It's just the usual 'de marks where some action is happening' particle.

wallofdeath said:
"邪神の卵が母体を守るために生き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ."

The verb that corresponds to "邪神の卵が..." here is actually the one in parenthesis-- is that accurate?
The stuff in parenthesis is an alternative interpretation so both 'actually' apply to 邪神の卵が
 

wallofdeath

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Thanks, I finally realized what this sentence is saying after digging through example sentences with the word "裏側" at dic.yahoo.co.jp and noticing it has a usage I wasn't aware of.

PaulTB said:
The stuff in parenthesis is an alternative interpretation so both 'actually' apply to 邪神の卵が

This is what I would have thought, but if it's "邪神の卵が生き続けた," isn't the meaning that the malevolent god is the one who continued to live? The actual situation is that Alessa (=母体) continued living (was forced to continue to live) even though she had been burned nearly to death in the course of a ritual performed by her own mother to impregnate her with the deity.
 

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wallofdeath said:
This is what I would have thought, but if it's "邪神の卵が生き続けた," isn't the meaning that the malevolent god is the one who continued to live?

I admit I didn't read the sentence too carefully. 😌 However the point I was making was that the () stuff and the non-() apply to the same bit.
Looking at the sentence again...

邪神の卵が母体を守るために生き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ.

... it seems to me that 母体 and 邪神の卵 are in the wrong position.

e.g. It should be

邪神の卵を守るために母体が生き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ.

Sure there isn't a transcription error / typo anywhere?
 

Scrivener

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I dunno about "ことがある", it sounds like "sometimes" to me...

Normally the subject of "生かされ続けた" would be marked with "ni" and the object with "ga", so it seems like the egg kept living (was made to keep living) in order to protect the mother's body/health.

I saw a really scary Japanese film called "Audition" the other night - very metaphorical - about men's guilt and fear towards women (being married to her is scarier than being killed by her!) but it was exceedingly horrifying!!! Still freaked out about it...
 

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Scrivener said:
so it seems like the egg kept living (was made to keep living) in order to protect the mother's body/health.
Which appears to be the exact opposite of the situation according to wallofdeath (who's presumably played Silent Hill).
 

wallofdeath

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In retrospect I should have mentioned that what I posted is a sentence fragment, and Alessa is the subject (sorry-- it was late when I posted it last night). The entire sentence is:

"アレッサは全身に致死レベルを遥かに超える火傷を負っていたが,邪神の卵が母体を守るために生き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ."

As I understand it, you should be able to remove something in parenthesis from a sentence and have it still make sense, but unless I'm misreading it, "邪神の卵" does not seem to have a function in the sentence without "生かされ続けた."

I also wanted another opinion on this sentence because one of Konami's other books about Silent Hill states that Alessa was made to continue living "呪法によって," so I'm still trying to figure out if these two books contradict each other.
 

PaulTB

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Well having アレッサは at the start helps :p

アレッサは全身に致死レベルを遥かに超える火傷を負っていたが、邪神の卵が母体を守るために生き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ。

Alessa's whole body bore burns far exceeding fatal levels but, because protected by the evil god's egg she continues to live (is made to continue to live).
 

wallofdeath

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I'm sure that's right-- but the reason I was convinced it didn't say this is that I was under the impression that verb (present tense) + tameni = "in order to.." while verb (past tense) + tameni = "because..."

Anyway, thanks a lot, I've got about a page left to translate so if there's anything tough I may be back... 🙂
 

Scrivener

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I can think of a few reasons why the writer used the "dictionary tense" or whatever you call it. (1) I think 母体を守る is kind of a "boilerplate" phrase, almost like a cliche. Probably 99% of the time that people use 母体 (when referring to pregnant mothers), they are going to follow it with 守る or 保護 or some similar word. So the writer was probably thinking of it as a "unit" rather than as a normal phrase. (2) Using the past tense might imply that the action had taken place in the past but had now stopped. If the mother is still being protected, he'd be more reluctant to use the past tense. (3) The "protection" is a general state rather than a series of individual actions, so the "dictionary tense" is appropriate. (I think that's right...)

I think the difference between "in order to" and "because" is just decided by context, not tense. Probably you are right that in most cases the "dictionary tense" is going to be indicating the "in order to" meaning, though, because of the limited conditions under which that tense is used to refer to past/ongoing events. Normally it's indicating the future or it's being used for abstract/general situations, I think, and naturally it's rare to say "because" + future tense. (If you put "ているために" into Google you will get about 2000 examples of "continuous tense" meaning "because", but that's different from the "dictionary tense" of course.)

アレッサは全身に致死レベルを遥かに超える火傷を負っていたが、邪神の卵が母体を守るために生 き続けた (生かされ続けた) のだ。

You have two options (using my style of English rather than echoing the writer's style):

"Alessa's whole body sustained burns that should easily have killed her, but she lived (was forced to stay alive) because the devil's egg was protecting its host."

"Alessa's whole body sustained burns that should easily have killed her, but the devil's egg lived (was forced to stay alive) in order to protect its host."

However, I think in the second case they might use "wa" instead of "ga" to change the topic more explicitly. That plus the context points to the first option.
 
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wallofdeath

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As I'm finally finishing up my translation of these few pages, I've been thinking that the final version would benefit greatly if someone from this board would be willing to proofread it. Although I took four years of Japanese in college, I didn't study at all in the six or so years it's been since then so working on this project with my somewhat faded memories of what I was taught in college has been a little tough.

I started working on a translation of a book called Ushinawareta Kioku: Silent Hill Chronicle in January, finally finished it in August, and then started working on Koushiki Guidebook immediately after that. Of course, it would be awesome if someone would consider proofreading the translation of Ushinawareta Kioku as well but since it's 80+ pages long, that may be a bit much to ask.

Anyway, this Q&A from Koushiki Guidebook is only five pages long so I'd think that someone who is fluent in Japanese would be able to read through it pretty quickly. Scans of the pages can be found at silenthillchronicle.net/kgb.htm.

If anyone wants to take a look at Ushinawareta Kioku, the translation is at silenthillchronicle.net and scans of the book can be found here.

I'm happy to give a few bucks to anyone who'll do a thorough job of proofreading my translation of these five pages (provided you're qualified, of course), so post here if you're up for it and we can work out how much and how you want me to get the cash to you. I'll upload a draft of the translation to the site as soon as I finish putting it together, so I'll post here again when it's available.

Thanks
 

PaulTB

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wallofdeath said:
I'm happy to give a few bucks to anyone who'll do a thorough job of proofreading my translation of these five pages (provided you're qualified, of course),

That's something you don't hear very often. I suggest you try the Yahoo honyaku group and / or sci.lang.japan

wallofdeath said:
so post here if you're up for it and we can work out how much and how you want me to get the cash to you. I'll upload a draft of the translation to the site as soon as I finish putting it together, so I'll post here again when it's available.
 

wallofdeath

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Paul-- thanks for the suggestions, I will check those out. I definitely don't want to press you if you're not interested, but I was hoping that either you or Scrivener would consider doing this-- I don't know how you took the part about "being qualified," but I actually just decided to put that in right before I posted it since I was envisioning some kid who'd never posted here before popping up and saying "I'll do it!" pretending to look at the translation, and then saying "Looks a-ok! That'll be $100 please." Haha. Anyway, I consider most of the regulars here including the two of you to be more than qualified.
 

PaulTB

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wallofdeath said:
Paul-- thanks for the suggestions, I will check those out. I definitely don't want to press you if you're not interested, but I was hoping that either you or Scrivener would consider doing this-- I don't know how you took the part about "being qualified," but I actually just decided to put that in right before I posted it since I was envisioning some kid who'd never posted here before popping up and saying "I'll do it!" pretending to look at the translation, and then saying "Looks a-ok! That'll be $100 please."
Well you could get inuyasha-the-kid to do it for you - he's posted before. 😌

I'm not really interested because, apart from anything else, I'm pretty busy and I'm not really interested in the subject matter.
 
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