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lv426

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Ok, a friend has just confused me.
I wanted to say "I m studying Japanese", this is how she wrote it!

"日本語を べぬきょお しています。"

So how should I look at all these forms of します?

しました = I have done (Past)
します = I'm doing (Present)
して います = I'm currently doing (Continuous)
するでしょう = I'm going to do (Future)

If possible could somebody give an example of each of these, e.g. how u would use them in a sentence. Could this be used on a sentence such as this, "テニスを します。"
"テニスを して います。" = To tell you the truth I cant really see the difference, I don't see what the difference between present and continuous is. Maybe its just the way she described continuous, if someone can enlighten me on this.
Thanks, sorry for the spelling!
 

Akakubisan

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If you had the same problem in English it would look like this:

I play tennis.
I am playing tennis.

That is part of your difference, you can say "tenisu o shimasu" and mean that you play tennis, just not necessarily at that moment.
 

MeAndroo

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@GCL

Kore kara nihongo wo benkyou suru.

Motto benkyou suru tsumori da. (though this one has more of a "I plan" connotation)

@lv426

Tell your friend she misspelled be-n-kyo-u.
 

Elizabeth

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MeAndroo said:
@GCL

Kore kara nihongo wo benkyou suru
This sounds to me like someone who hasn't started studying yet.
I could be wrong, but I think you definately need the motto. Even better is
"I must study more" :)
 

Buntaro

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lv426,

Please keep track of the verb tenses in this way:

Mainichi benkyou shimasu. I study everyday.

Ashita benkyou shimasu. I will study tomorrow.

Ima benkyou shite imasu. I am studying now.

Kinou benkyou shimashita. I studied yesterday.


~~~

Please note that there is no present perfect in Japanese. In Japanese, there is no difference between:

Didn't you study yet? (Mada benkyou shite inai desu ka?)

Haven't you studied yet? (Mada benkyou shite inai desu ka?)

(Please note that the first example is considered incorrect English grammar, and is only presented here as an example.)

Please consider the following three examples:

The train stopped. (Densha wa tomarimashita.)

The train has stopped. (Densha wa tomatte imasu. Literally, "The train is stopping." There is no present perfect "has stopped" tense in Japanese, so the Japanese speaker has no choice but to use the "is ~ing" form)

The train is stopping. (Densha wa tomarimasu. Here, the Japanese speaker must use the so-called "future tense".)

~~~

Please note that "benkyou suru" is both present and future tense. (Japanese does not have a true future tense.)

~~~

You should not think of "benkou suru deshou" as a true future tense. It is a special inflection, that is similar to wondering about the future, or making a prediction. For example, "Ashita ichiji ame deshou" means, "There is a slight chance of rain tomorrow." If you are stating a fact of something happening in the future, use suru.
 

Elizabeth

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The train stopped. (Densha wa tomarimashita.)

The train has stopped. (Densha wa tomatte imasu. Literally, "The train is stopping." There is no present perfect "has stopped" tense in Japanese, so the Japanese speaker has no choice but to use the "is ~ing" form)

The train is stopping. (Densha wa tomarimasu. Here, the Japanese speaker must use the so-called "future tense".)
In the case of tomaru, though, I think tomatte iru can also be used in the progessive sense of showing the course of an action, not only as the effects resulting from it, so that as the train is slowing down or coming to a stop "tomatte imasu" is appropriate.

By the way, there are several other past threads on these distinctions, I even wrote a few myself as I was actually studying the grammar, if the OP is particularly interested. 😊
 

Damicci

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I will study more Japanese
Couldn't it be simply said as "わたし は もっと にほんご を べんきょう します。"?
Since tsumori specifies a degree of intention. I don't know maybe the speaker does not want to be held to the statement so no degree of intention would be used. Leaving tsumori out would just make it a general statement. I think @_@
 

MeAndroo

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Elizabeth said:
In the case of tomaru, though, I think tomatte iru can also be used in the progessive sense of showing the course of an action, not only as the effects resulting from it, so that as the train is slowing down or coming to a stop "tomatte imasu" is appropriate.

By the way, there are several other past threads on these distinctions, I even wrote a few myself as I was actually studying the grammar, if the OP is particularly interested. 😊

Without getting into a whole thing (since I haven't read your other threads yet), what about tomatteiku (the train is going to stop)? Is that, once the slow down starts, interchangeable with tomatteiru? Or would it be tomattekuru, since you've come to the moment of stopping?
 

lv426

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Wow thanks for the replys now, thanks I understand now. する or します are the present tence, e.g. I play tenis "テニス を します"
Or for example I am playing tenis "テニス を して います".

I'm guessing this all relates to what I have been learning in class with the て form. I played tenis then went home "テニス を して うち に いきました".

We have also used the て form for a sentance like this, go straight forwards please "まっすぐ 行って ください".

Its almost as if there is a commer after 行って and befor ください, so して います would be like do, there is (e.g. I know います is usually used to describe something that is there so it seams logical to think of it describing something that is currently happening).

I hope I'm correct in my thinking, but it seams the て form is very useful so I guess its more for me to bruch up on :)
 

Elizabeth

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MeAndroo said:
Without getting into a whole thing (since I haven't read your other threads yet), what about tomatteiku (the train is going to stop)? Is that, once the slow down starts, interchangeable with tomatteiru? Or would it be tomattekuru, since you've come to the moment of stopping?
I'm not sure about 止まっていく, but I 電車が止まってくる I think is
a mistake since a train isn't something appearing or coming out.
How about 「電車が止まりつつある」?for the train is stopping ?
These sound more formal and weird translated but I found some examples in my dictionary so what does everyone think about the train that is trying to stop or starts stopping ? 「電車が止まろうとしている」とか「電車が止まりかけている」?
:geek:
 

Buntaro

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Elizabeth et all,

I want to re-visit the specific example, that of a train that is decelerating (into a station). In the English sentence, the ~ing form is used, "The train is stopping." My understanding is that "Desha wa tomatte imasu" is wrong in this situation. I would translate "Desha wa tomatte imasu" as "The train has stopped," which is different than my decelerating example.

I see the train, while it is still in the act of decelerating, but not having come to a complete stop (Elizabeth's example of "starting to stop") as "Densha wa tomarimasu." I do not see how it could be anything else.
 

GoldCoinLover

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Oof, this is confusing. What is the difference between shimashita, shimasu, and suru? Suru means "to do" and shimasu means??

So I should say:
わたし は もっと にほんご を べんきょう します。"?
I will study more japanese?
 

Buntaro

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GoldCoinLover,

You asked,

"Suru means "to do" and shimasu means??"

--> Shimasu is the polite form. Suru is the non-polite form. Otherwise they are the same.

shimasu = suru

shimashita = shita

~~~

Your translation of, "I will study more japanese," is correct. However, I would suggest a slight change in word-order:

わたし は にほんご を もっと べんきょう します。
 

Elizabeth

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Buntaro said:
Elizabeth et all,

I want to re-visit the specific example, that of a train that is decelerating (into a station). In the English sentence, the ~ing form is used, "The train is stopping." My understanding is that "Desha wa tomatte imasu" is wrong in this situation. I would translate "Desha wa tomatte imasu" as "The train has stopped," which is different than my decelerating example.

I see the train, while it is still in the act of decelerating, but not having come to a complete stop (Elizabeth's example of "starting to stop") as "Densha wa tomarimasu." I do not see how it could be anything else.
「電車が止まっている」というのは This train is stopping か This train has stopped.
だと思います。「駅に着く前に電車はスピードを落とす」ときは、「電車が止まっている」が
つかわれるのです。 I know it seems strange, but that is what has always been explained to me. Tomaru is odd in this situation I suppose because it's obvious the train will stop very shortly. An analogous verb may be "shimu" or dying -- can "shinde iru" share the meanings of being near death and "has already died" I wonder...
 

Elizabeth

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Buntaro said:
Elizabeth et all,

I want to re-visit the specific example, that of a train that is decelerating (into a station). In the English sentence, the ~ing form is used, "The train is stopping." My understanding is that "Desha wa tomatte imasu" is wrong in this situation. I would translate "Desha wa tomatte imasu" as "The train has stopped," which is different than my decelerating example.

I see the train, while it is still in the act of decelerating, but not having come to a complete stop (Elizabeth's example of "starting to stop") as "Densha wa tomarimasu." I do not see how it could be anything else.
Oh, yes, you are right. I just asked someone again and it was as you say. I think the first time it was explained to me must have been in poor English (well, mostly in Japanese so I didn't notice) which caused the misunderstanding. Sorry for any confusion. :sorry:
 

khammo01

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Train example

For the "The train is stopping" problem, there has been much discussion, but I and those who I know simply say '電車が止まる' - to mean 'the train is going to stop'.
This is what I use when I was not sure if the train is going to stop but now it appears certain that it will.

Needless to say, Japan doesn't have the present perfect form that was originally mentioned, and to really be comfortable speaking Japanese, you just have to forget about English grammar because it is really a crutch :)
 

Kuzzy

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@khammo01 brings up a good point. While it is natural for us to try to relate Japanese grammar to our own native grammar, it will not always be feasible. After all, they are different languages :p

I will try to give a different explanation regarding the issue of stopping. This verb is a process. If you are driving your car and you decide to stop, you must press the brakes. Once you do this, you begin to stop and then eventually do stop, but it takes time. 止まる means "to stop", which is a process. In English, the process of stopping is said "is stopping", which is the process rather than the result. 止まる represents the process, therefore it would be translated as "is stopping". The result is "has stopped". ~て+いる represents continuous action, therefore 止まっている would represent the continuous action of the process of stopping, which is to eventually come to the stop. Therefore 止まっている is translated "has stopped".

And Elizabethさん, I am fairly certain that 死ぬ operates the same way.

I hope that maybe this helps to make this topic clearer for some of you. I'm sure my explanation could be better, but it makes sense in my head :p
 

Elizabeth

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Kuzzy said:
@khammo01 brings up a good point. While it is natural for us to try to relate Japanese grammar to our own native grammar, it will not always be feasible. After all, they are different languages :p

I will try to give a different explanation regarding the issue of stopping. This verb is a process. If you are driving your car and you decide to stop, you must press the brakes. Once you do this, you begin to stop and then eventually do stop, but it takes time. 止まる means "to stop", which is a process. In English, the process of stopping is said "is stopping", which is the process rather than the result. 止まる represents the process, therefore it would be translated as "is stopping". The result is "has stopped". ~て+いる represents continuous action, therefore 止まっている would represent the continuous action of the process of stopping, which is to eventually come to the stop. Therefore 止まっている is translated "has stopped".

And Elizabethさん, I am fairly certain that 死ぬ operates the same way.

I hope that maybe this helps to make this topic clearer for some of you. I'm sure my explanation could be better, but it makes sense in my head
Yes, also I realize there is a class of tte iru conjugated verbs like shiru, kekkon suru, hataraku, shimaru, aku, oboeru, owaru, tsukareru, ai (love) etc that represent "end states" or results of what can be considered a 'process' in English that correspond to our present tense and are not ever translated in their present perfect form. They are used to emphasis that an action which has occurred in the past and has resulted in a change of state (often an immediate change, eg shutting the door, getting married) is still in effect or existence.

On the point of dying might be shi ni kaketeru. ? Although I still think I remember reading "is dead" as "shinde iru."
 
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Buntaro

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I suppose, for the sake of balance, we should consider those "irregular" English verbs that do not take the ~ing form, even though you might think they "should":

Where do you live?
What do you do?
How does that smell?
How does that taste?
How does it feel?
What do you think?
 

Elizabeth

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And Elizabethさん, I am fairly certain that 死ぬ operates the same way.
I don't think so at all. "Shinde iru" may be translated as "(has) died" but I'm sure
it is also "is dead." Basically there are lots of context cues and irregular uses of the 'っている’ form of transitive verbs that need to be accounted for. I mean just a very basic example like "shinbun wo yonde iru" (I am now reading a newspaper) or read regularly "Anata no otaku de ha, donna shinbun wo yonde imasuka?" (What paper do you read at your house?

A better example for both the present and present perfect would be
"Nihon ni itte iru" (I have been to Japan (in the past) or I went to Japan and am still there or will be going in the future I believe are all possible meanings depending on the other context.
 

Kuzzy

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Elizabeth said:
I don't think so at all. "Shinde iru" may be translated as "had died" but I'm sure it is "is dead."

I am still a beginner, so I know you are far more advanced than I, but I don't see how what you've said contradicts what I said. I used "has stopped", but I think "is stopped" would be an equally fine translation for having completed the process. "He has died", and "he is dead" both seem to tell me that the process of dying has completed. Would "shinimasu" not translate to "is (in the process of) dying"? If not, then I was mistaken - I had gotten the impression that it was the same type of situation.

I understand that the nuances are many; I only meant that I was under the impression that "shinu" operated similarly to the situation we were discussing. Perhaps I should stick to the basic topics 😌
 

Elizabeth

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No, it's a useful discussion since verb dictionaries generally don't supply the definition I always have to look these forms up somewhere and verify them for myself. But shinimasu is "will die" or "dies" not necessarily currently dying ("shi ni kakete" I think is still best for that). Since every living thing is in that process, though, maybe there is some latent similarity. :)

And I understand what you're saying logically but I've never said about a train that has just stopped in the station or been idle for some time this train "is stopped" unless I were trying to find and get off or on one that wasn't running. ☝ Anyway, I guess it is best just to learn each situation on a case-by-case basis or a few related conjugations at a time to see what is more natural.
 
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Buntaro

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My sensei confirmed these:

He is dying = Kare wa shini kakete imasu. [edited.]

He has died = Kare wa shinde imasu. By the way, for beginning students, it is probably better to say, "Kare wa naku narimashita."
 
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