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Police Harassment

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I am assuming that Chidoriashi presented the provision in an amended (if it had been at any point), up to date state, which would exclude the possibility of further amendments currently existing. I mean, the thing tells in which circumstances a constable may stop and question a person, and it is hard to believe that elsewhere it would provide the contrary in the same act.

I think he is right in requesting evidence to support your allegations, and I too am of the opinion that this is no longer a matter of principle, but of law. People spend time digging up authority to support their claims and it is disrespectful to ignore the evidence they provide and simply carry on.
Exactly and this twit has no base for his/her argument, which I have lobbied right from the start.

Where are they? can you post them here to make your point?
No Reyter can't and that is why Reyter keeps resorting to changing the topic back to the police being "fascists" and avoiding the the valid points most people have made here.

Watch Reyter's next post, if Reyter dose post it will have nothing in it to show the evidence of Reyter argument and if Reyter doesn't post anymore in this thread it will only confirm that a troll was at work.
 

Chidoriashi

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I will save him the trouble, since I'm sure he doesn't have any idea what he should post. Here are the laws and their clauses insofar as I know of, and as far as I can tell does not support his case in anyway. But let's look, and try to find that "special clause" he thinks is protecting him.

First the law in regards to police conduct (one on he thinks says somewhere that he does not have to show his ID card unless suspected of a crime first.)
警察官職務執行法

(質問)
第2条 警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問することができる。
2 その場で前項の質問をすることが本人に対して不利であり、又は交通の妨害になると認められる場合においては、質問するため、その者に付近の警察署、派出所若しくは駐在所に同行することを求めることができる。
3 前2項に規定する者は、刑事訴訟に関する法律の規定によらない限り、身柄を拘束され、又はその意に反して警察署、派出所もしくは駐在所に連行され、若しくは答弁を強要されることはない。
4 警察官は、刑事訴訟に関する法律により逮捕されている者については、その身体について凶器を所持しているかどうかを調べることができる。

And here is the law about carrying ones gaijin card clearly stating that he must show his ID card when requested by the police.

(登録証明書の受領、携帯及び提示)
第十三条  外国人は、市町村の長が交付し、又は返還する登録証明書を受領し、常にこれを携帯していなければならない。ただし、十六歳に満たない外国人は、登録証明書を携帯していることを要しない。
2  外国人は、入国審査官、入国警備官(入管法 に定める入国警備官をいう。)、警察官、海上保安官その他法務省令で定める国又は地方公共団体の職員がその職務の執行に当たり登録証明書の提示を求めた場合には、これを提示しなければならない。
3  前項に規定する職員は、その事務所以外の場所において登録証明書の提示を求める場合には、その身分を示す証票を携帯し、請求があるときは、これを提示しなければならない。

Now Reyter.. please show me that "special clause" proving your case. And if you think it is not listed here.. find it. But the fact is you are basing your claims on what you found on Debito's website, which includes everything written here (actually I have more stuff written here). And as I said before what Debito wrote in English is not correct, it is misrepresenting what the law actually says. So please read it for yourself if you can.
 

Mikawa Ossan

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窶啌 ツ 窶楼ツ坂ぎ窶堙俄?ケK窶凖ィ窶堋キ窶堙ゥツ職ヒ?オ窶堙債、窶堋サ窶堙固ス窶凪?督アツ焦?ヒ?闇?O窶堙個湘ェツ焦?窶堙俄?堋ィ窶堋「窶堙??徙ヒ弯ツ湘倪?督セツ鞘?倪?堙娯?凖アナスツヲ窶堙ー窶ケツ≫?堙溪?堙ゥツ湘ェツ坂?。窶堙俄?堙債、窶堋サ窶堙個身窶「ツェ窶堙ーナスツヲ窶堋キツ湘倪?「[窶堙ーナ暖窶佚鯛?堋オツ、ツ青ソ窶ケツ≫?堋ェ窶堋?窶堙ゥ窶堙??堋ォ窶堙債、窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙ー窶凖アナスツヲ窶堋オ窶堙遺?堋ッ窶堙ェ窶堙寂?堙遺?堙ァ窶堙遺?堋「ツ。
Perhaps this is what he is referring to...? Although it does say that the officials must show I.D. upon request if asked outside of their office, it does not require any certain order. In other words, in such a case both must show identification, but the order is unspecified.

I guess that is the best he has to go on. Note, though, that there is no compromise in that he must show his own identification. Debito is is in a different situation, however, because he is not a foreigner, but a naturalized citizen. Therefore he is not required to show his foreigner registration card. But comparing him to yourself is like comparing apples and oranges. Reyter's case is much more cut and dry than Debito's.
 

Chidoriashi

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Well, we already established that he has the right to request to see the police officer's ID if requested to show his own and told him that he has a valid complaint, if the officer refuses to do so. As far as I understand though he thinks he has the right to ignore the police when requested to show his ID unless he is suspected of a crime, and as far as I can tell that is a misinterpretation of the law.
 

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Yeah, the key is the beginning of what he wrote though, he believes he must be suspected of a crime first before he can be forced to cooperate with the ID check.

oh I see what you are saying.. he says even if the law didn't say that.. which is doesn't. So I guess, he can go on believing whatever he wants so long as he always shows his ID when requested of him... odd that he would go against his principles in standing up to the "fascists" though.
 
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Mikawa Ossan

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I think that the intention of the law in making officials show their ID upon request outside of the office is to protect people from anyone trying to impersonate a proper official. If there is no doubt that a police officer is indeed who he claims to be, then there really is no point in asking for ID, is there?
 

Chidoriashi

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I agree that is clearly the purpose of that law. To protect people from handing out personal info to somebody who could be impersonating a police officer etc. for fraudulent gain. So no, there is no point if it is established that he or she is who they say they are.
 

Reyter

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Yes and Japan is so bad that other countries don't have similar laws, maybe you could become a freedom fighter and loby for all these countries to stop these laws.
These are just two countries which I dug up the law and in the Netherlands , shock horror, you even have to produce ID when witness to a crime.

LOL That is funny. You have searched the laws of various countries in a desperate bid to a law where police can pick out someone at random and demand to see their I.D. and question them but you couldnt. Was that all for me? LOL, very funny. For the 4th time, if I am a suspect in a crime it is the law that I coply with police and I have no problem doing that.

A liquor vendor asking to see the I.D. of someone who wants to buy alcohol because they suspect he or she is underage and police randomly stopping someone on the street to ask for I.D. is a plainly absurd comparison to make.

Where are they? can you post them here to make your point?

I already posted a link to them. You can see it maybe on the previous page. If you cant find it I would be happy to post another link if you so request.
 
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Reyter

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Chidoriashi

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LOL That is funny. You have searched the laws of various countries in a desperate bid to a law where police can pick out someone at random and demand to see their I.D. and question them but you couldnt. Was that all for me? LOL, very funny. For the 4th time, if I am a suspect in a crime it is the law that I coply with police and I have no problem doing that.
A liquor vendor asking to see the I.D. of someone who wants to buy alcohol because they suspect he or she is underage and police randomly stopping someone on the street to ask for I.D. is a plainly absurd comparison to make.


I already posted a link to them. You can see it maybe on the previous page. If you cant find it I would be happy to post another link if you so request.

And for the whatever time.. I have shown you your interpretation is wrong. The link you posted is just to debito's site. I in my last post to you pasted all the laws that are listed on the link you gave and some more. I have ask you to read through and show me where you are getting your idea that you do not have to show your ID card to the police unless first suspect of a crime.

Can you do that? Can you come up with a rebuttal? No, I don't think you can, and if so you are beaten, you are wrong, you have no ground to stand on, you are the one babbling on and posting nonsense. Do you not see this? I think you do, you are just to embarrassed now about your bungling to admit it.

So will you stop posting your "nonsense" until you actually show where in the laws your case is supported? Remember I posted the laws that were written in your link for you. So no need to tell anybody to redirect to your link. Look at the laws and support your case, or stop posting. Thanks!

Dont worry about it. Here are the links. The first one isnt the laws itself, just some observations on peoples experience with "the very kind" police and the second is some general info about the laws and the 3rd is the law with the clauses and sub-sections you requested.
1. http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
2. http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#checkpoint
3. http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf

Yes, your precious 3rd link subsections are exactly what I have posted. And anybody that can comprehend Japanese will see that what Debito wrote in English is a misrepresentation of what the law is saying. Get it through your head already!
 
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Dont worry about it. Here are the links. The first one isnt the laws itself, just some observations on peoples experience with "the very kind" police and the second is some general info about the laws and the 3rd is the law with the clauses and sub-sections you requested.
1. http://www.debito.org/?p=1752
2. http://www.debito.org/whattodoif.html#checkpoint
3. http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf
Taken from your links, I really hope you are really not this stupid.

As there is nothing to do with foriegners rights in the first link, Deibito is a naturalized Japanese so that does not concern us in regards to the topic at hand.

2nd link,
3860518797_5c5f024979_o-1.jpg


3rd link,

3861300770_860a275203_o-1.jpg

I underlined the relevent parts in red so even someone as ignorant as you can see the huge mistake you want so desperately to undo.
 
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LOL That is funny. You have searched the laws of various countries in a desperate bid to a law where police can pick out someone at random and demand to see their I.D. and question them but you couldnt. Was that all for me? LOL, very funny. For the 4th time, if I am a suspect in a crime it is the law that I coply with police and I have no problem doing that.
A liquor vendor asking to see the I.D. of someone who wants to buy alcohol because they suspect he or she is underage and police randomly stopping someone on the street to ask for I.D. is a plainly absurd comparison to make.
I agree, it is about as absurd as your statements in regards to anything in this thread... And that is pretty damm absurd.
 

Reyter

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Anyway, despite all the nervous irritation and desperate babbling on this thread if one cares to follow the links and read though the information one can clearly see that police cant lawfully demand to see I.D. if one, foreigner or Japanese, knows ones rights. If one is a suspect in a crime or is suspected of being about to be involved in a crime, the police have the lawful right to stop you and demand to see I.D. but you have the right to demand they produce their own I.D. for inspection before you show your own. If they stop you and say they wish to see your I.D. because you are a foreigner, of course it isnt illegal to ask but you have the legal right to refuse.

Japan is a nice and civilised country. Did you people really think such backward laws existed without clauses?
 
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Anyway, despite all the nervous irritation and desperate babbling on this thread if one cares to follow the links and read though the information one can clearly see that police cant lawfully demand to see I.D. if one, foreigner or Japanese, knows ones rights. If one is a suspect in a crime or is suspected of being about to be involved in a crime, the police have the lawful right to stop you and demand to see I.D. but you have the right to demand they produce their own I.D. for inspection before you show your own. If they stop you and say they wish to see your I.D. because you are a foreigner, of course it isnt illegal to ask but you have the legal right to refuse.
Japan is a nice and civilised country.
Are you a complete and utter idiot? All those links you provided and the links provided by others clearly shows that you don't have to be suspected of a crime to be asked for your ID and no you don't have the right to refuse. Read the Foreign registry law again. So stop feeding untruths to people who may be reading this thread b/c you will only get them into trouble.
Read the underlined part in this screen shot from your link.
3861300770_860a275203_o-1.jpg


Japan is a nice and civilised country. Did you people really think such backward laws existed without clauses?
Do you not know simple comprehension, the laws exist and you provided links to them numbskull.

For the love of god, this guy is an idiot. I seen some stupid posts in my day but this takes the cake.
 

Chidoriashi

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Anyway, despite all the nervous irritation and desperate babbling on this thread if one cares to follow the links and read though the information one can clearly see that police cant lawfully demand to see I.D. if one, foreigner or Japanese, knows ones rights. If one is a suspect in a crime or is suspected of being about to be involved in a crime, the police have the lawful right to stop you and demand to see I.D. but you have the right to demand they produce their own I.D. for inspection before you show your own. If they stop you and say they wish to see your I.D. because you are a foreigner, of course it isnt illegal to ask but you have the legal right to refuse.
Japan is a nice and civilised country. Did you people really think such backward laws existed without clauses?

You are completely ridiculous.

"desperate babbling"... you mean everything you have posted.

"go to your threads and read through the info" oh you mean what FrustratedDave and I and other posters have probably already done, re-posted and shown you why you have misinterpreted what the laws say?

Reyter.. the fact is we have gone to your threads, read what they said, told you why what they say is wrong, and asked you to show us otherwise. The fact is you cannot do it. Either because you don't understand Japanese or because you are wrong and you know it. The garbage you keep spewing out is not correct. The police do have the right to stop you if you are a foreigner and ask for ID without being suspect of a crime. You cannot prove otherwise and that is exactly why you keep on spamming this crap.

Come on I dare you prove me wrong! I have shown you my case and proven yours to be wrong. Can you respond? Apparently not. To keep the saying the same stuff after being proven wrong and offering no response is pathetic and you should really just stop posting.
 

Reyter

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You are completely ridiculous.

"desperate babbling"... you mean everything you have posted.

This has really got you upset, hasnt it? Are we not friends anymore? To be perfectly honest, i stopped taking your messages seriously a few days ago. And as for "Frustrated Dave" LOL............. I havent taken his idiotic, befuddled, hysterical and hopelessly contradictory posts seriously yet.

Here is the link for anyone who wishes to know the laws. Japan is a civilised country and police powers over anyone, Japanese or foreigner are far more limited than the police and some pityful lackeys would have you believe.

http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf
 

Chidoriashi

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This has really got you upset, hasnt it? Are we not friends anymore? To be perfectly honest, i stopped taking your messages seriously a few days ago. And as for "Frustrated Dave" LOL............. I havent taken his idiotic, befuddled, hysterical and hopelessly contradictory posts seriously yet.
Here is the link for anyone who wishes to know the laws. Japan is a civilised country and police powers over anyone, Japanese or foreigner are far more limited than the police and some pityful lackeys would have you believe.
http://www.debito.org/GcardLAWS.pdf

You are truly a idiotic aren't you? Oh, you stopped replying to my posts a few days ago? Or you stopped reading them because they show you that you are wrong? Well that would be a logical explanation for as to why you keep on saying the same uninformed stupid nonsense over and over.

Ok I don't know how to do that image insert trick that FrustratedDave does, but here is the English text I think you believe is supporting your case. This is from the second set of boxes down on the 3rd link you posted. The one right up there in your quote And it says:

"If the police ask for your ID ask why. Because under Police Exectuion of Duties Law Section 2: A police officer is able to ask for a person’s ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation where the policeman sees some strange conduct and some crime being committed, or else has enough reason to suspect (utagau ni tariru soutou na ryuu) that a person will commit or has committed a crime or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases the police officer may stop a person for questioning."

BUT This is not correct. The English written here misrepresents what the law posted next to it actually says. Here is the law: READ it if you can.

第二条

 警察官は、異常な挙動その他周囲の事情から合理的に 判断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑うに足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた 犯罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていることについて知つていると認められる者を停止させて質問 することができる。

If you could understand a lick of Japanese you would see that this precious law you think is defending your pathetic case says nothing about "A police officer is able to ask for a person’s ID, but only". But nothing. It does not even mention an ID check.

It starts out right by talking about a police officer deducing strange behavior as potentially being criminal and then the officer having the right to stop that person and question them. It say absolutely positively nothing about an officer only having the right to stop and ask you for ID if you are suspect of a crime. Nothing in this law protects you from the other law! DEBITO IS LYING TO YOU! Do you get it? No, you don't because your mind cannot comprehend that much because it is already made up. So go ahead and believe in your fantasy, and I'm sure there will come a day when i will be at home enjoying some nice cold beers and you will be sitting in jail for obstruction of justice. Cheers!
 

Reyter

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You are truly a idiotic aren't you? Oh, you stopped replying to my posts a few days ago?

No, I stopped taking them seriously a few days ago. Im certainly not going to read all of your latest offereing. If you keep it short and to the point I may read it. Just for future reference.

I dont really care what you do or say just if you are a foreigner, dont just hand over your I.D. like a pityful, docile lackey but know your rights. Unless you are suspect in a crime, the police cant legally demand to see your I.D. So make sure you ask "why" if the police ever pull you up for a random check. If they say anything to the end; "because you are a foreigner" dont show them as they can only ask and you hae the right to refuse.

If they are smarter than the average policeman and say you are a suspect, you have to show them I.D. but, before that you have the right to demand to see their I.D. Do that and inspect it closely and as publicly can. It will destroy their little power trip.

窶斗窶堋ス窶堋ソ窶堙坂?氾??堋「窶認窶傳窶堋セ窶堙仰!
 

nice gaijin

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I daresay this thread is way past its bedtime.

Do let us know how it goes next time you refuse to present ID to the police.
 
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No, I stopped taking them seriously a few days ago. Im certainly not going to read all of your latest offereing. If you keep it short and to the point I may read it. Just for future reference.
I dont really care what you do or say just if you are a foreigner, dont just hand over your I.D. like a pityful, docile lackey but know your rights. Unless you are suspect in a crime, the police cant legally demand to see your I.D. So make sure you ask "why" if the police ever pull you up for a random check. If they say anything to the end; "because you are a foreigner" dont show them as they can only ask and you hae the right to refuse.
If they are smarter than the average policeman and say you are a suspect, you have to show them I.D. but, before that you have the right to demand to see their I.D. Do that and inspect it closely and as publicly can. It will destroy their little power trip.
窶斗窶堋ス窶堋ソ窶堙坂?氾??堋「窶認窶傳窶堋セ窶堙仰!
I would pay money to see to stopped and asked to show ID by a policeman and have you refuse, now that would be fun to watch.

You obviously have the IQ of a potato, so good luck with your furture endevours.

epic_fail3-1.jpg
 
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