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Off-topic: serving in the armed forces

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Mark of Zorro

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He's just a kid.

Like hell he is. You need to wake up.

This is precisely part of the problem. The delusion is off the scales. He is a young adult on board a war vessel of a belligerent nation, the service on which he volunteered for.

Or, he is a child soldier who has been tricked and whose life has been put at risk and you all just sit there? I don't think so.

(I don't think he's even old enough to drink legally in the USA yet).

That is NO measure of adulthood, even if one is going to go with "what they let you do". As a member of the American Imperial Forces those his age right at this very moment are making the decision of life or death for someone. And you default to "he can't drink a beer legally"? WAKE UP!

Thank you for your restraint.

You are either a fool or a troll to have picked at it. And you better stop.
 
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bentenmusume

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Mark of Zorro said:
This is precisely part of the problem. The delusion is off the scales. He is a young adult on board a war vessel of a belligerent nation, the service on which he volunteered for.

Or, he is a child soldier who has been tricked and whose life has been put at risk and you all just sit there? I don't think so.
With all due respect, we don't know why mdchachi's friend's son enlisted in the armed forces.

Believe me, I have no love for war and am the last person who is going to rah-rah the military industrial complex, but I personally am reluctant to draw conclusions about the human nature of any individual person.

At the very least, I don't feel comfortable laying the sins of an entire organization at the feet of a single young man who I know nothing about (other than the fact that he is a member of said organization).

I am sure there are plenty of soldiers in history who have ended up serving in the military of their particular country despite their own personal misgivings about war and the idea of potentially being in a position to take the life of another simply because they are on the other side.
 

Mark of Zorro

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With all due respect, we don't know why mdchachi's friend's son enlisted in the armed forces.

We know he volunteered.

We know he has access to the internet.

And there are cases where I do think ignorance is an excuse but when joining an organization whose purpose is to kill people I do not accept ignorance as an excuse.

And frankly I blame directly wishy-washing attitudes such as yours for a major reason why the war machine continues to grind.
 

Mark of Zorro

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I am sure there are plenty of soldiers in history who have ended up serving in the military of their particular country despite their own personal misgivings about war and the idea of potentially being in a position to take the life of another simply because they are on the other side.

Desmond Doss was forced to join the U.S. Imperial Forces during WWII. He chose to become a medic as that would conflict less with his personal beliefs. But the fact remains, he was only there because he was forced, and he was forced directly.

I got nothing good for volunteers in what are clearly belligerent actions and belligerent militaries, not even if people are confused about the fact of them being belligerent.

 

bentenmusume

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Mark of Zorro said:
We know he volunteered.

We know he has access to the internet.

Actually, we don't necessarily know either of things, let alone any nuanced factors that might influence them. Maybe he went through a rough period in his teenage years and his veteran father said "enlist in the army or I'm kicking you out of the house and disowning you." (I know one person in a similar situation.)

Frankly, I resent you classifying my attitude as "wishy-washy" or directly blaming me for the propagation of the war machine when literally the only thing I said is that I am unwilling to pass judgement on the intentions or human nature of an individual human being who I know essentially nothing about other than that he happens to serve in the military.

(edit:
Added quote to make it clear what I was responding to because of the intervening post.)
 
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bentenmusume

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And do we know that mdchachi's friend's son wasn't forced or strongly encouraged to enlist because of circumstances primarily beyond his control?

Do we know that he's not serving as a medic or in some other non-violent capacity because he holds beliefs similar to Desmond Doss?

That's all I'm saying. We don't know these details (or any details at all beyond the most obvious and superficial ones), and that's why I'm not comfortable passing judgment.
 
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Mark of Zorro

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Frankly, I resent you classifying my attitude as "wishy-washy"

Good. Maybe after thinking on this more you will realize how going out of your way to make excuses for the man look, and also how this excuse making (common as it is) only plays into the hands of those who love, profit from and promote war.

As I have said many times, attempt to occupy the middle ground as you might, there is no middle ground. You either oppose war and the people who make it happen, or you are the unwitting or intentional ally of warmongers, or you are one. Take your pick.

I disowned two nephews over their service to the war machine. I have zero sympathy for people not even related to me. Believe it.

Never in human history have people had it so easy as they do in the United States right now. There is simply no excuse for signing up. None. And forgiveness is only obtainable by clear and vocal renunciation of service to the Imperial Military Industrial Establishment. See Jesse Ventura.
 
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bentenmusume

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What would you consider an acceptable attitude for me to hold?

Would you prefer that I say, "I know nothing about this young man other than that he (ostensibly) volunteered to serve in the military and was not drafted or forced to enlist at gunpoint. Hence, regardless of any other factors that might at play, his life experiences, his worldview, or anything, I can state unequivocally and beyond a shadow of a doubt that he (and anyone else in his position) deserves any hatred, suffering, and/or death he incurs as a result."

Is that how far I have to go for you not to consider me an ally of warmongers?
I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm genuinely curious.

edit: Sorry, I feel like I should stop posting on this matter because it's derailing the original topic. I'll leave the post here but I probably won't be responding any futher. (Not out of disrespect for you, Mark of Zorro, but out of respect for the larger topic at hand and people who are affected by it.)
 

mdchachi

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Like hell he is. You need to wake up.

This is precisely part of the problem. The delusion is off the scales. He is a young adult on board a war vessel of a belligerent nation, the service on which he volunteered for.

Or, he is a child soldier who has been tricked and whose life has been put at risk and you all just sit there? I don't think so.

That is NO measure of adulthood, even if one is going to go with "what they let you do". As a member of the American Imperial Forces those his age right at this very moment are making the decision of life or death for someone. And you default to "he can't drink a beer legally"? WAKE UP!
And you were fully formed and had your "stuff" together at the age of 19?

Do you even have a point? He's lost his humanity because he's in the U.S. Navy? He deserves whatever he gets because he's part of a military of superior size and excellence?

99.9% of people his age in the U.S. military will not make any life or death decisions throughout their whole military service (not counting the obvious like drinking and driving). You can rail against the military and antagonize people all you want, it's not going to change anything. And I'm not going to bite.

Although I am curious which militaries do you consider not belligerent? The JSDF?

Also since I wrote the above before reading the thread, I will say motivation for joining is not that relevant. Most people that age join to learn some life and professional skills and, perhaps, to get some college money. After two or four years they are done. I'm not sure what his plan is.
 
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Mark of Zorro

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I will not be allowed to voice my true sentiments here. I know because I have been remorselessly censored before. And so, this thread is essentially a joke. I may as well fight you with both hands tied behind my back.

Also, I know I can expect the same apologist, indoctrinated attitudes I always run into. Let me just say this again....indoctrinated.

Years ago I encountered a vehement anti-war Australian. I did not understand him then just as few readers here will understand me now. I too was well indoctrinated.

He was an ALT. Recently I met a retired Japanese junior high school teacher and was shocked to learn he was teaching in the same city I was back when I was a junior high ALT. I asked him where and it was the same school as the Aussie guy. I asked if he remembered working with an Aussie ALT and described his appearance, which was rather distinctive, even for a White person in Japan. He remembered nothing. Then I mentioned that he was very anti-war. BOOM! Memory flash! That's how anti-war the guy was...almost violent about it. And he was right to be.

It took me years to get it. I don't expect that even if I was free to talk, I could truly get much enlightenment here.
 

Mark of Zorro

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Sorry, I feel like I should stop posting on this matter because it's derailing the original topic. I'll leave the post here but I probably won't be responding any futher. (Not out of disrespect for you, Mark of Zorro, but out of respect for the larger topic at hand and people who are affected by it.)

I feel the same as you about derailing the thread. But, the whole thing is central to my being. To me it would be like talking here while never mentioning that I live in Japan. The fact my not be on-topic very often, but its important to many things I say it just does not cause any controversy.
 

Davey

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Sorry but is this a private message conversation or a thread? Bit confused these days how members attack each other... Discussions are fine but too many personal attacks imo
 
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