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Andromedashun

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Is it OK for you to leave it unclear? I can give you another hint and explain about the point you are misunderstanding if you ask it.
Yes it is fine to me if you can give another hint but please be more specific.
 

Toritoribe

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So, what is the correct answer of the question #5?

Yes it is fine to me if you can give another hint but please be more specific.
Then, you should say so in the thread, instead of leaving the thread without giving any response to our replies. I have to point out that your attitude is somewhat rude. Anyway, I replied in the thread.
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, #1 is the correct answer.
 

joadbres

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I have to point out that your attitude is somewhat rude. Anyway, I replied in the thread.
Nothing the OP wrote here seemed rude to me. Anyway, please keep in mind that English is not the OP's first language. It can be difficult to make a very polite request in one's second (or third, etc.) language.
 

OoTmaster

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Nothing the OP wrote here seemed rude to me. Anyway, please keep in mind that English is not the OP's first language. It can be difficult to make a very polite request in one's second (or third, etc.) language.
The way the OP stated it seemed like an off-hand comment to me. But I don't think that was the intent of the OP. I can see how Toritoribe would think it sounds rude. But I agree with you that it can be difficult to make a polite request in a language that is not your first.
 

nice gaijin

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To clarify, I don't think toritoribe was referring to just the wording:
Then, you should say so in the thread, instead of leaving the thread without giving any response to our replies.
That sounds pretty rude to me.
 

Toritoribe

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Nothing the OP wrote here seemed rude to me.
As I clearly wrote in my previous post and he also understood it, I'm talking about his attitude/behavior in another thread, not his wordings here, as nice gaijin-san explained above.

Anyway, please keep in mind that English is not the OP's first language. It can be difficult to make a very polite request in one's second (or third, etc.) language.
Even so, I believe he can use the expressions such like "May I ask~?" or "Can you explain~?". I don't care if he writes just "Why?", though. (In fact, he replied with just "Why?" again in the aforesaid thread, but I said nothing about it there.)
 

Toritoribe

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@joadbres -san, you said nothing about my reply to your post above, so is it OK to interpret that you misunderstood my words?
もしそうなら、誤解をもとに注意しておきながら勘違いだと指摘されるとだんまりを決め込むというのはあまり褒められた態度とは思えませんので、少なくとも何かしらの反応をいただけるとありがたいのですが?
 

joadbres

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@joadbres -san, you said nothing about my reply to your post above, so is it OK to interpret that you misunderstood my words?
No, please never make any kind of assumption when there is no reply from me...
I didn't reply simply because I felt that a reply was not necessary in this situation. Plus, a reply from me would have been somewhat critical and argumentative, and I felt it was better to just avoid that unnecessary negativity. Since you have raised the issue, though, I will reply.

As I clearly wrote in my previous post and he also understood it, I'm talking about his attitude/behavior in another thread, not his wordings here, as nice gaijin-san explained above.
I am well aware of the other thread, as I, myself, have posted on that thread as well. I disagree that your writing was clear. Your comment about the OP's rudeness came shortly after you both quoted his words (from this thread) and described his behavior (from the other thread). But you used the word "attitude", which caused me to believe you were referring to his words rather than his behavior. While "attitude" could refer to either, it seemed to me to be much more likely to refer to words, which is why I made that assumption. I thought that you were suggesting the OP was being rude by dictating how you should reply to his request (or something like that). But you have cleared up what you meant by "attitude", so all is fine there.

As for the OP's behavior in the other thread, yes it is rude to completely fail to respond to someone when they put effort into preparing a response, but if you read through that entire thread, you can see that the OP responded at least in some way to the first 8 posts directed at him, and the only failure to respond to a post was one with a one-sentence comment to the OP from you. The OP might have even missed that one-sentence comment from you, as it was grouped together with a reply from you to Majestic-san, and was then interrupted by a question from me. I don't think such a situation warrants the OP being called out as rude. It seems a little excessive to me.
 

Toritoribe

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As I wrote in my previous post, he clearly understood my words since we were talking about it till then. I was talking to him, and he understood it correctly. I don't think my wordings have problem at least for him, the one I was talking to. It's not for someone who might not know the entire conversation in the first place.
As you wrote by yourself, you didn't realize that I was referring to his attitude/behavior in another thread when you initially replied to me, and therefore you said you thought his words here were not rude. Is this situation exactly called "you misunderstood", no? It's fine that you say his attitude/behavior in that thread is not rude now. I can accept that it's your opinion. However, you were talking about this thread, not that thread, by your misunderstanding at that time. This is the fact.
会話の流れを完全に把握しないまま一部の言葉尻に反応して会話に横から闖入した挙句、勘違いを指摘されると、当事者同士は正確に理解できていたにも拘らず、言葉遣いに非があったのだからそう推測しても無理はなかったと誤解とは認めずに責任を転嫁し、自己を正当化して開き直る。これを「独りよがり」というのでは?
 

joadbres

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As I wrote in my previous post, he clearly understood my words since we were talking about it till then. I was talking to him, and he understood it correctly. I don't think my wordings have problem at least for him, the one I was talking to.
There is a significant flaw in your reasoning. Just because the OP understood that you were encouraging him to continue to try to understand the content in another thread DOES NOT MEAN that he understood precisely why you were referring to his attitude as being rude.

It's not for someone who might not know the entire conversation in the first place.
This is a moot point. I have already made it clear that I DID know the entire conversation, as I was well aware of the other thread. It's puzzling to me that you are entertaining the idea that I might not have been familiar with the other thread, given that:
1. I had already previously posted on that thread only a couple of weeks prior.
2. You explicitly linked to that thread on one of your posts here, prior to your post regarding the rudeness of the OP.
3. That other thread was being actively updated at the time I made my first post here, and so would have shown up near the top of this forum's "recent posts", which I, and I assume most regular visitors to the forum, routinely check to determine what threads have been updated recently.

As you wrote by yourself, you didn't realize that I was referring to his attitude/behavior in another thread when you initially replied to me, and therefore you said you thought his words here were not rude. Is this situation exactly called "you misunderstood", no? It's fine that you say his attitude/behavior in that thread is not rude now. I can accept that it's your opinion. However, you were talking about this thread, not that thread, by your misunderstanding at that time. This is the fact.
You seem to be fixated on establishing that there was a misunderstanding on my part. As I have already explained, any misunderstanding on my part was facilitated by your use of the word "attitude", which to me seemed much more likely to be referring to the OP's words, rather than his lack of a response to your most recent post on the other thread. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that the OP had the same misunderstanding. Nothing the OP has written up until now has revealed the OP's initial understanding of your comment regarding his/her rudeness.

I get a general sense from you that you feel that your comment was directed only at the OP, and therefore there is no need for others to address it. Generally, I stay out of matters on this forum that I feel don't concern me. However, I do sometimes choose to speak up when I feel that I am defending others who may not be able to adequately defend themselves, as was the case here. This thinking on my part should have been clear by what I said in my defense of the OP in my first post in this thread.
 

Andromedashun

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Then, you should say so in the thread, instead of leaving the thread without giving any response to our replies. I have to point out that your attitude is somewhat rude. Anyway, I replied in the thread.
I actually understand this as ''is what I didn't response in the thread ''Help with long-passage reading question''''.

I remembered that I leave things like this once long ago but he didn't commend on anything. In fact, leaving the thread unanswered doesn't mean I didn't respect his help so I don't know why he refers my ''attitude'' as rude. I read a lot of threads that need similar helps by various OPs here and I know there are some coincidences in which the OPs leave the thread without reply but didn't come up to this kind of debate. I feel like he raises the ''rude attitude'' to me although I don't understand why. o_O
 
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joadbres

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I recommend that all of us forget the past on this issue, and start fresh from here, with a clean slate.

To @Andromedashun :
On this forum, and any forum, when you ask for help, it is best that you acknowledge EVERY reply from people who post, offering you advice and help. Even if it is only a "thank you" tag/label, it is important to make some kind of reply, both to make it clear that you saw the post, and to thank the person for taking the time to offer you help.

Even if you decide to give up on a question, please make sure that you give at least a short reply of thanks to each post offering help.
 

Toritoribe

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Does that mean you finally acknowledge you were wrong? You repeatedly insist that the problem is on my use of the word "attitude". Your "assumption" is reasonable since my word "attitude" is not appropriate. Your notice is reasonable since your "assumption" is reasonable. This is your logic. However, unlike your wild guess, Andromedashun-san understood my word correctly, as you can see now that he himself clearly said in his reply above, and furthermore, nice gaijin-san, the one who just read our conversation as same as you, also understood it correctly, as he wrote in his post. They understood my word correctly as the same meaning as what I want to convey, but you misunderstood it. Do you finally accept that the problem is on your side; your misunderstanding, not on my side; the use of the word "attitude"? If so, before "forgetting the past on this issue, and starting fresh from here, with a clean slate", I recommend you to say something about your irrelevant notice to me which was based on your misunderstanding. You were wrong, right?

わざわざこう確認するのは、今、ある疑問が胸に芽生え始めているからです。返事に一切反応を示さないことと、勘違いに起因する見当違いの注意をしておきながら決してそれを認めようとはせず、なぜ勘違いしたかという自己保身のための言い訳ばかりを繰り返すことの、果たしてどちらがより非礼な行為なのだろうか、と。御自分が間違っていたと認めることがよほど悔しいのだお見受けしますが、責任転嫁、自己正当化、開き直り等の行為は行為者自身の器の小ささを示すものでしかなく、傍で見ていても見苦しいものでした。子曰く、過ちては則ち改むるに憚ること勿れ。過去の自分の行為をうやむやにしたまま他者への意見へと議論をすり替えて次に進もうとする前に、まず御自身の行為を総括してそれにきちんとけじめをつけられてはいかがですか?
 

joadbres

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However, unlike your wild guess, Andromedashun-san understood my word correctly, as you can see now that he himself clearly said in his reply above, and furthermore, nice gaijin-san, the one who just read our conversation as same as you, also understood it correctly, as he wrote in his post.
Yes, that is true. However, you conveniently fail to mention that OoTmaster-san, based on his reply, apparently thought that my assumption seemed reasonable. (My apologies, OoTmaster-san, for dragging you into this mess. I hope you can forgive me.)

...

I have been racking my brain trying to determine why you are so bothered by this issue. Noticing that you used the word “注意” in your most recent Japanese reply, I thought that perhaps you feel I was admonishing you with my original post. That’s not the case. I wasn’t trying to warn or admonish or scold you. I was merely trying to defuse the situation, so that Andromedashun-san, who was already feeling bad at his repeated failure to comprehend the Japanese text, didn’t feel even worse about the whole situation.

Then I noticed your use of the phrases “as I clearly wrote” and “he clearly understood”, together with your repeated attempts to seek an acknowledgment from me that the miscommunication was all due to a misunderstanding on my part. I suspect that the real reason behind your hangup is an excessive pride in your English ability. To be sure, you should be proud of your English ability, as it is astounding. My Japanese ability is probably not even 1/40th of your English ability, and that is being rather generous to me. However, if this pride results in you repeatedly badgering others who misinterpreted your words into confessing their own fault, then perhaps it has reached an unhealthy level.

I made my original post in good faith, interpreting the situation as best I could with the facts that I had at hand. I had no hidden agenda, and wasn’t trying to attack you, or to be devious or underhanded. Do you honestly expect that after characterizing my post as “irrelevant” and a “wild guess” you will get any kind of mea culpa from me? Fat chance.

I recommend you to say something about your irrelevant notice to me which was based on your misunderstanding.
OK, sure, I can do that: get over it.
 

Toritoribe

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惜しいですね。全体的に平穏な調子を保てていたのに、最後の方になって居丈高さが頭をもたげてしまいましたか。他山の石以て玉を攻むべし、ですが。

Is it your another "assumption" that I have pride in my English ability? Actually, it's your another "misunderstanding". I, too, have been thinking why you stick to your "assumption" of my word "attitude", and why you never acknowledge your "assumption" was wrong. You raised up the word "pride", so an idea has come to my mind that it would be because you yourself have "pride" in your "assumption".
Here's what I wrote to Andromedashun-san in my previous post.

Then, you should say so in the thread, instead of leaving the thread without giving any response to our replies. I have to point out that your attitude is somewhat rude. Anyway, I replied in the thread.

I mentioned "leaving the thread without giving any response to our replies" right before the sentence that includes the word "attitude". Isn't it natural to interpret that "attitude" refers to "leaving the thread without giving any response to our replies"? Also, please notice a fact that he didn't change his wordings in another thread even after getting my reply above. If he thought "attitude" referred to his wordings in this thread, not his behavior in that thread, he would never use the same word "Why?" again there since it's a really quite defiant attitude. In the first place, he has been using the similar wordings in his replies to me so far, but I've never said any comments on it. It's clear to me he never thought my word "attitude" referred to his wordings from the context, including all our conversations thus far, not just from the use of a single word or something. And it's already confirmed, as you know.
You mentioned 注意 in my post, but please notice that I said 見当違いの注意. I can accept 注意 if it's not based on misunderstanding, as I already wrote. The point is on 見当違い, not 注意. You might have a tendency to stick to the use of a single word without seeing the context, perhaps?
Anyway, this thread seems to be going to go (or maybe has already gone) far off-topic. I have to admit that I might consider to close this thread as a moderator if I'm not a person concerned...
 

joadbres

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Is it your another "assumption" that I have pride in my English ability?
No, it is merely a suspicion, which is why I used the word "suspect". That is quite clear writing on my part, I think.

I have to admit that I might consider to close this thread as a moderator if I'm not a person concerned...
You, or any other moderator, are welcome to close it. I certainly have no objection. After all, I was the one who suggested starting over with a clean slate. I have no desire to continue this discussion, which is obviously going nowhere. If @Andromedashun wants to continue asking questions about Japanese grammar, it is probably better that he/she starts afresh, with a clean thread, anyway.
 

Toritoribe

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After all, I was the one who suggested starting over with a clean slate.
Fair enough. I think there is no need to close this thread since no one wouldn't reply here anymore. Sorry for everyone who might feel unpleasant to read this thread.
 
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