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Question Man'yōshū , translation

amir159

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Hi everyone,
i read this beautiful poem a while ago in the Man'yōshū, the book of thousand poems, which is one of the most important poem collections in the japanese language. There are two versions of it.

The original one: 雷神 小動 刺雲 雨零耶 君将留

and the one in hiragana:なるかみの,すこしとよみて,さしくもり,あめもふらぬか,きみをとどめむ

my quesition now is, if you can just easily translate the original one into the hiragana form and if it´s right grammatical?

my source: Manyoshu [Book 11]
-> number 2513
 

amir159

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poem number 2514 is also part of it. so it´s a tanka.
original: 雷神 小動 雖不零 吾将留 妹留者

hiragana:なるかみの,すこしとよみて,ふらずとも,わはとどまらむ,いもしとどめば

if it helps you, this poem was also quoted in the anime "Garden of words" Constellation of Stardust
 
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Toritoribe

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my quesition now is, if you can just easily translate the original one into the hiragana form
No one can do it except experts in the field. You need to know a fact that the writing system in that era was completely different from the modern Japanese system. The poems were written with kanji in Chinese usage but in Japanese order, or using kanji as phonogram (万葉仮名). Actually, the correct readings were missed, so those readings were guessed in the later period. For instance, なるかみ for 雷神 is considered the most possible, but no one can prove it.

and if it´s right grammatical?
This question doesn't make sense. The reading was interpreted to fit the ancient Japanese grammar, which was also completely different from the modern one.
 

amir159

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No one can do it except experts in the field. You need to know a fact that the writing system in that era was completely different from the modern Japanese system. The poems were written with kanji in Chinese usage but in Japanese order, or using kanji as phonogram (万葉仮名). Actually, the correct readings were missed, so those readings were guessed in the later period. For instance, なるかみ for 雷神 is considered the most possible, but no one can prove it.


This question doesn't make sense. The reading was interpreted to fit the ancient Japanese grammar, which was also completely different from the modern one.
Yes, i already thought so. The transcription of my source was made by academics, the question is,if you can count them as experts....
I will Change my question. Is the grammar correct like how it is now in hiragana,independently of the original quote? Does it make sense itself ?

Thank you very much!
 

amir159

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So i interprete that you wouldn't recommend the hiragana form like this as a Tattoo,Since it doesn't make sense to native Japanese People? I don't want to have something wrong written on my body.
 

Toritoribe

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鳴る神の 少し響みて 差し曇り 雨も降らぬか 君を留めむ
鳴る神の 少し響みて 降らずとも 我は留まらむ 妹し留めば

These are the transliteration by using the modern kanji and hiragana. Japanese people usually read 万葉集 in this version (often with the modern Japanese translation and explanation).
Note that these are written in ancient Japanese anyway, so most Japanese people don't understand it completely. To tell the truth, I'm a native Japanese speaker, but I can't even read 響みて as とよみて.
 

amir159

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I See. I know that modern Japanese Works with a mixture of kanji and hiragana and this was also One of my concerns about the transliteration. So your version should be the right way. Thanks a lot!
 
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