What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

Lesson 8: と、で、の、より&ほど

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
#16. 自転車「①と」バイク「②で」はどちら「③の」ほうが速いですか?
バイク「④で」ほうが、自転車「⑤より」速いです。
*
Again, time to check the sentence first and foremost. Here's my answers explained:
① this again reminds me of sentence #1 about the watches and it followed just about the same pattern.
② this is the で that Toritoribe mentioned (previous message).
③ again, this is more or less the same pattern as the first 問題.
バイク「④で」ほうが、自転車「⑤より」速いです。
Is the reply to the question about which the fastest.
④ I picked this one because it's the means of transportation or in other words: by bike. This one was wrong. I don't understand the difference between のほう and でほう. That's the issue.
⑤Not really sure either. Since it's a comparison it felt like the right thing to write. Not much of a good grammatical reason huh?
 

bentenmusume

やれやれ
Contributor
Joined
12 Oct 2004
Messages
1,112
Reaction score
878
④ I picked this one because it's the means of transportation or in other words: by bike. This one was wrong. I don't understand the difference between のほう and でほう. That's the issue.

でほう is essentially nonexistent and ungrammatical.

When you want to say "X is more something", where X is a noun, it's Xのほうが~

自転車のほうが速い "(Going by) bicycle is faster."
スーパーのほうが安い "(Buying it at) the supermarket is cheaper."

If you explicitly state the verb, then the location is marked by で.

自転車で行ったほうが速い "Going by bicycle is faster."
スーパーで買ったほうが安い "Buying it at the supermarket is cheaper."

Do you see the difference here?
In the former, the noun is being connected directly to ほう.
For these examples, の is the only possibility.
で marks the location or means of an action and cannot be used to directly connect the nouns 自転車 or スーパー with the noun ほう.

On the other hand, 自転車で行く and スーパーで買う are marking the "means" 自転車 and the location スーパー as the means and location of the action verbs 行く and 買う. In these cases the verb takes the past (actually perfect) tense to modify ほう. These are similar to the "relative clauses" you've seen before. It's the entire phrase modifying ほう, not simply the noun+で.

⑤Not really sure either. Since it's a comparison it felt like the right thing to write. Not much of a good grammatical reason huh?
Your answer is correct, but it's not so arcane that the only way to puzzle it out is that it "just feels right."

The sentence very clearly is intended to means "(going by) motorbike is faster than (going by) bicycle" (i.e. "more so than (going by) bicycle, (going by) motorbike is faster".

Since 自転車 is the point of comparison (the thing that バイク is being described as faster than), より is really the only option.

(As Toritoribeさん said before, the point of reference isn't always explicitly stated. バイクのほうが速いですよ or 自転車より速いですよ are perfectly valid utterances to mean "It's faster to go by motorbike, you know." or "It's faster than going by bicycle, you know." Both of them are comparisons, but it doesn't mean you just use one particle or another because the whole sentence is making a comparison. The correct particle is dictated by what you're actually trying to say.)

edit for clarity
 
Last edited:

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
Very good explanation, you cleared up a lot of stuff, thanks and well done!
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
So let's see if I can get it this time:
#17. 友達「①と」京都「②で」旅館に泊まりました。二人「③で」一泊五万円でした。
*
①as in I stayed there "with" my friend. ② is where they did the action of staying. ③ is the means/manner as in "in the manner of two people"
Comments:
Yeah I went too fast. I saw the place and jumped to conclusions. It's simple, it's the inn of the 京都.

#18. わたしは兄「①ほど」背が高いありませんが、靴「②の」サイズは、兄の「③より」大きいです。
*
There's a comparison taking place here, so that's one thing to be aware of. The first one is a typical not as much as... 靴 means shoes, so the size of the shoes. I'd say the last one is より in the sense of
兄⇦より"compared to".
Yes, I got it! I'm happy.
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
#19. 今日は、弟「①の」誕生日です。母「②と」わたし「③と」「④?」お祝い「⑤?」ごちそうを作りました。ケーキは去年
「⑥より」ずっと上手に出来ました。
① is a possessive, the brother's birthday. The second one is "with". I think ③ might be the list continuing so it might be と but then I'd need to put it next to a second particle. It's the same problem as in #12.
お祝い means "to celebrate" well it means: "congratulations" it's a noun.
⑥ is a comparison between this year and last year's cake.
I'm not sure about 4 and 5. Could I get a hint please (not the full answer).
Thanks!
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
This means only #12, #19 and #20 remain. I'll wait for a hint for #12& #19.
#20. 僕は弟と、大学「①で」合格発表を見に行った。
So here I was hesitating between で and の. I'm assuming
「合格発表」means the acceptance list. So it could the acceptance list of the college and need a の. I think it's a で though because that's where they did the action of checking the list.
たくさん「②の」「③で」いっはいだったが、僕は普通「④より」背が高いから、
I'm not familiar with 「いっはい」. I doubled check to make sure it wasn't a typo and it wasn't. "A lot of people"... I'm not sure how to use たくさん. I'm thinking たくさんの人。I checked my dictionary and found a sentence which confirms that it's の:
「同じ虹を、これだけたくさんの人が撮影したものを見たことがありません。」
③ is で I think because it's the way things are, たくさんの人で, in the sense that で modify the whole clause before it, not just the 人.
④ is likely より because what's "average" is compared to the speaker.
遠くから、自分「⑤の」番号がよく見えた。合格だ!
My number so that's の as possessive.
今日「⑥ほど」うれしい日はない。
not as much as...
Comments:
Well I should've picked の for the first one because the answer I talked about. The rest if good though. It's good enough although I'm a bit disappointed I missed the first one but 5 out of 6 is good enough.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,379
Reaction score
3,528
#14
Is で already written in the question? I mean, which is the correct question,
ニューヨーク( )東京( )では
or
ニューヨーク( )東京( )
?

#12 is related to #14, so I'll explain it after getting your reply to the above.

#13
The noun which is more or less than something is biology: I like biology better than Math. That means that Noun B is biology and that Math is Noun A.
Correct.

So:
数学 is "math" (Noun B) and 生物 is biology (Noun A).
You are confused "Noun A" and "Noun B" here. See those two sentences are opposite. This is the key of your misunderstanding or confusing.

#17
で can be correct in 2. Your initial interpretation is perfectly grammatical.

#19
This is related to #12, too.

#20-1
大学 can be the location, thus, there can be another correct particle here. However, it's not で. Notice that the verb is 見に行った "went to (location) to see the list of successful candidates", not just 見た "saw the list at/in (location)". In this case, 大学 is not the location of the action "to see" is done, but the destination the speaker goes to. See the difference in below.

レストラン食べた。
レストラン食べに行った。

郵便局手紙を出した。
郵便局手紙を出しに行った。

#20-3
There is a typo. It must be いっい, not いっい.
で indicates "state/manner" here; "crowded with many people".
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
Regarding #14, it wasn't written in the question. I mean, that's what the answer is.
Notice that the verb is 見に行った "went to (location) to see the list of successful candidates", not just 見た "saw the list at/in (location)".
Ah yes of course! It's not where the action took place since the action is going to the place. That's why.

#20.(3) is indeed a typo.
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
#12.君「①と」、君のお父さん「②と」、お兄さん「③と」
「④で」
、だれが朝一番早く起きますか?
I'm not sure how #12 and #14 are related in the sense that は isn't a possible answer choice here.
I think I figured it out anyway. The first one was と as part of a list. ④ is より as in what's being compared.
Comments:
I was wrong about the last one. It's probably the で Toritoribe mentioned before. In which case I'm not sure I understand it.
Actually, no. I just read the section in my book again and it's で to indicate the superlative. I had missed that one before.
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
#19. 今日は、弟「①の」誕生日です。母「②と」わたし「③と」「④で」お祝い「⑤で」ごちそうを作りました。ケーキは去年
「⑥より」ずっと上手に出来ました。
I did more investigation in my book and found out ので as "by", "from the fact that". I don't think it applies here.
作りました is to do in the past and ごちそう is the direct object. This means ごちそう is a noun.
お祝い is also a noun. It can mean congratulation gift. Maybe it's the manner here in the sense of as the manner of a congratulation gift, we treat someone. It's not that far fetched.
④ is the tough one. But since I know it's similar to #12, it's likely the same thing as @Toritoribe mentioned about で.
In that case I think ⑤ might be wrong. I mean, it feels weird to have two で next to each other there.
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
After checking, I have a mistake.
⑤ was の, not で. I expected I'd get this one wrong as I wasn't familiar with that part of the sentence.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,379
Reaction score
3,528
See the construction of the three questions.

#12 君と、君のお父さんと、お兄さん「③」「④」、だれが朝一番早く起きますか?
#14 ニューヨークと東京では、どちらのほうが人口が多いですか?
#16 自転車とバイクではどちらのほうが速いですか?

The nouns preceding で is "a list of possible choices" as you interpreted in #14. で indicates "range/area" here, so it means "among the list".
This で does not indicate the subject. The subjects are already stated in each sentence; だれ, どちらのほう and どちらのほう, respectively

#19
Sorry, I was wrong. This is not the case.

母とわたしとでお祝いのごちそうを作りました。

で indicates the subject here. As you can see, there is no subject indicated by が in this sentence, unlike the three sentences above.
The の after お祝い is for possession, just like "congratulations dinner".
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,379
Reaction score
3,528
For confirmation, are the given answers of #12-3 and 4 really と and で? I mean, aren't they で and は, respectively?
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
The answers for #19 are:
upload_2018-7-24_18-23-32.png

I think you were talking about 19.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,379
Reaction score
3,528
Nope. I'm talking about #12. It should be 君と、君のお父さんと、お兄さんでは、だれが朝一番早く起きますか?, not 君と、君のお父さんと、お兄さんとで、だれが朝一番早く起きますか?.

I did more investigation in my book and found out ので as "by", "from the fact that". I don't think it applies here.
The clause preceding ので must end with a verb or adjective in that meaning. When the one preceding it is a noun, な is necessary. This な is the attributive form of copula だ, which is the same etymology of な for the attributive form of na-adjectives. This の is a nominalizer, not the possession particle.
e.g.
お客さんが来たので、お茶を出した。
今日は暑いので、外に出ない。
部屋は静かので、よく眠れる。
彼は学生ので、今夏休みだ。
 

Zizka

Sempai
Donor
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
528
Reaction score
33
This の is a nominalizer, not the possession particle.
の can only be a nominalizer when it's used in combination with で right? Because I can't find anything in my books about this otherwise (の as a nominalizer used independently).
 

Attachments

  • upload_2018-7-24_19-0-23.png
    upload_2018-7-24_19-0-23.png
    9.8 KB · Views: 119
  • upload_2018-7-24_19-0-45.png
    upload_2018-7-24_19-0-45.png
    9.8 KB · Views: 121

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,379
Reaction score
3,528
#12
I have to say では is far more common and natural for 3 and 4. At least, と for 3 is usually omitted nowadays as I wrote previously since this is the one for the last noun in a list. とで is usually used only when と is needed to connect to the verb, such like ~と遊ぶ in another question.
e.g.
君と、君のお父さんと、お兄さんとでは、誰と一番よく遊びますか?

の can only be a nominalizer when it's used in combination with で right? Because I can't find anything in my books about this otherwise (の as a nominalizer used independently).
Not really. の is quite commonly used with so many particles to nominalize verbs or adjectives.
e.g.
彼が来たのは、話をするためだ。
見るのと聞くのとは大違いだ。
彼女に話したのが間違いだった。
暑いのに外に出た。
飲むのも食べるのも好きだ。
事故が起こるのを防いだ。
 
Top Bottom