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Lesson 8: と、で、の、より&ほど

Zizka

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Hello guys,
Introduction:
As was suggested by @Toritoribe , I'm going to create my lesson 8 here as opposed to in a blog post for more exposure and interaction.
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For those who haven't read my blog series so far, I'm practicing Japanese particles by doing exercises from a book. I've done 180 so far and I'm now up to lesson 7 (each lesson has 30 問題 to do).

Not many people are reading and basically no one is commenting as I thought I'd try a different alternative. I'd say threads in the forum are much more active. Although Toritoribe is about the only to ever comment, the threads are seen by a lot more people so I'm thinking it can help more people. I'd probably like to archive all my questions somewhere as it contains a lot of information in the replies which could be useful for other people.

Methodology
I follow a fairly simple methodology. Each # is identified and the question typed. I put blanks between Japanese brackets: 「」and identify each blank with a number like so: 「①」. I then put the answer I've picked next to the number: 「①から」in bold.
Finally, underneath each sentence, I explain my reasoning for picking each answer. I use italics when referring to theory and regular format for my own personal comments.

I highlight incorrect answers in red and then add up a comment section to explain my mistake and try to find what was the good answer.

Each batch of exercise is done in groups of 5 to keep everything tidy. I'll then make another reply in the thread for the next group of 5 questions.

Toritoribe will usually reply and explain things and I then reply to his comments in a separate thread.
References:
I usually refer to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar to support my answers with theory. It's the best Japanese grammar book I've checked so far. I highly recommend it.

See you in #1 to 5!
 

Zizka

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In this new batch of particles, only より and ほど are new. The other particles have already been covered in previous exercises. Also note that lesson 8 is the last exercise with a limited choice of particles for answers. Lesson 9 & 10 are the last ones and you have to pick your own particles from everything you've seen so far.

より is:
I. used in comparisons from what I've read and understood.
II. Establishes a boundary.
III. Formal version of から as a starting point in time and place.
IV. Used with interrogative nouns to indicate that what follows is the best.
V. Indicates the basis for conclusions, results, etc...
 

Zizka

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ほど on the other hand is used as:
I. interchangeable with くらい when it comes to approximiation about quantities.
II. Take a specific situation and evaluates its extent. English: "to the extent that"...
III. Followed by a negation, establishes a standard for comparison. English: "(not) as much as little as"
 

Zizka

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*Note that there are only 20 exercises in lesson 8 as well, just like for lesson 7.
#1 to 3:
#1.この時計「①より」あの時計「②より」どちら「③ほど」ほうが安いですか?
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Both words preceding the first two particles are object. There's a comparison taking place: one watch ➡ another watch regarding the price. どちら is a question word.
I don't know what ほうか means in that context which doesn't help.
① a comparison
② a comparison
③ ほど II. (second use of ほど of the definitions provided above).
Comments:
Ok, I was off track as it turns out. The answers were: ①と②と③の.
The first two are for a list and the third one I don't know as I don't know what ほう means. I rushed too quickly into the exercise, I need to read the explanations again for the particles.

#2.コーヒー「①」紅茶「②」どちあらがいいですか?
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There's a choice here. I think this is a simple case of と&と for listing possible choices.
listing
listing
Yes.
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#3.わたしはコーヒー「①と」紅茶「②より」ほうが飲みたいです。
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Contrarily to the previous sentence, there's a comparison here. The person prefers to drink tea over coffee. Now which particle would I use to indicate a preference of something over something else. I'd list ① as part of a list and ② as the thing that's being compared to coffee.
Comments:
Ok as long as I don't understand what ほう means, there's no way I'll get the right answer as in this case it's の again like the previous exercise. I think I'm getting tired as I should've spotted this.
As for the first one, it's より. So let's take some time to think about this instead of rushing to the next one.
coffee precedes 「より」which means it's modified by it. So the coffee is being compared to the tea. If I look at the verb, 飲みたい it doesn't make sense to me:
"If I compare coffee to tea, I prefer to drink it" is the opposite of the meaning of the sentence. But in the sentence the person prefers to drink over coffee which is the opposite.
I'll stop here for this one since it's only 20 and there are some things I don't understand just yet. Need to take some time read more about this.
 

Zizka

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#4. 僕は紅茶はコーヒー「①ほど」好きじゃありません。
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This is a case of ほど III.
Ok.

#5.きのう「①より」今日「②の」ほうが寒いですね。でも北海道「③ほど」寒くありませんよ。
①:"Yesterday" is compared to "today" in the sense that "today" is colder.
②There's that damn ほう again. I think it means 方. Anyways, every single time there's been a ほう so far, it's been preceded by a の so I'll go with that. Not going to miss it that time, no way.
③Again, not as much as... just like the previous sentence.
Ok, good! I'm starting to get how より works.
 

Toritoribe

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#1
ほう is treated as a noun, meaning "side/one of two" here. So, どちらのほう means "which one (between the two)".
As I mentioned in another thread, と in #1-2 can be omitted. Also, の is also correct here. In this case, この時計とあの時計のどちら is a single phrase. (The questioner was put a comma after 2 probably because to show の is not appropriate answer here.)

#2
a typo
どちら --> どちら
The second と can be omitted also here. (A comma is usually put in this case.)

#3
You already know ほう, right? Try again.

#4, 5
You got it (hope "including ほう" in #5 now).
 

Zizka

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#6.この仕事は、あなた「①と」わたし「②で」やりましょう。
①you and me.
②Oh boy. It's not a comparison, so it's not より or ほど I don't think. やりましょう means "to do". So it's not の either for the second one. I'd say で in the sense we do the work you and I, the way the work is done if you prefer.

#7.すくやき「①と」おすし「②と」天ぷら「③と」うち「④より」どれが一番お好きですか?
①②③: are all part of a list. For the third one, this might be a case where the third one shouldn't be listed with と.
④I'm used to うち meaning "house". Here I guess it means inside, as in "among" all those things. Hmm.... let's see. I think it might be a comparison as in: "if you compare all three dishes, which one do you like best". See above より(IV.)
Comments:
The third was の and the last, で. The last I can understand, as in within+manner. The third not so much.
 

Zizka

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#3.わたしはコーヒー「①と」紅茶「②の」ほうが飲みたいです。
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I understand that ほう refers to one side or another. But still, why the の there? It's a possessive of the nominal clause that comes before? As in "which of the two do you prefer". Am I right?
 

Toritoribe

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#6-2
で indicates the subject in this case, not meaning "way/means". This で is usually used for organizations or when connoting the subject is a side of two or in a group. Thus, あなたとわたし connotes that there are other people than you and me, and has a nuance "you and me, not other people", unlike が.

But still, why the の there? It's a possessive of the nominal clause that comes before?
Yes, that's の for possession, since ほう is treated as a noun, as I wrote in my previous post.
#3-1 is not と, by the way.

#7
うち is treated as a noun as same as ほう. Thant's why の is used there.
 

Zizka

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#8.わたしは姉「①ほど」背が高くありませんが、妹「②より」
高いです。
①So there's definitely some comparison taking place here. Since the first sentence is in the negative, I'd go with ほど
②より as in compared to me.
Ok.

#9. 京都から「①と」名古屋から「②の」ほうが東京に近いです。
①②: from what I've seen, と+のほう is a standard set structure for picking one among two.
Comments:
No, first one was より. Why wouldn't と work here? It's because you can't say: "From Tokyo and from Nagoya Tokyo is the closest of the two". Still I find the first より confusing (より in general come to think of it).
 

Zizka

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Thus, あなたとわたし connotes that there are other people than you and me [sort of like や], and has a nuance "you and me, not other people"[sort of like しか for the "not other people], unlike が.
 

Toritoribe

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と+のほう is a standard set structure for picking one among two.
Where did you get it from?

You didn't write anything other than the quotation in your post above.
 

Zizka

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It's the impression I got from the exercises I was exposed to.
Well, I put #9 which I had difficulty with and I also commented in your quote (I added some comments in bold, see reply #11).
I don't quite get より to be honest. I mean, how do I determine that the description of the comparison applies to which element being compared? That's what I don't get.
 

Toritoribe

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The one you got in #5 is the basic construction.

Noun A より Noun B のほうが~
Noun B is more(or less) ~ than Noun A.

きのうより今日のほうが寒いですね
Today is colder than yesterday.

As you can see, #3 is quite the same construction as #5.
As for #9, "the distance from Kyoto (to Tokyo)" and "the distance from Nagoya (to Tokyo)" are compared.


I added some comments in bold, see reply #11
Ah, I see. I don't recommend putting something new in the quotation, though. It seems like just a quotation.
Anyway, not really for those interpretations. や is used when there are more people in the same side of you and me. Also だけ works well, not しか.
 

Zizka

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Noun A より Noun B のほうが~
Noun B is more(or less) ~ than Noun A.

きのうより今日のほうが寒いですね
Today is colder than yesterday.

Ahhhh ok! That's what I was looking for. With that as a reference I'm sure I'll be fine.
 

Zizka

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#10. 汽車「①より」行く「②で」バス「③の」行くほうが安いですよ。
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①&③Right so we have a comparison here. It's an affirmative sentence to so より is going in there. There's also ほう so there's likely a の again, likely in ③.
Noun A よりNoun B のほうが
Noun B is more(or less) ~ than Noun A.

きのうより今日のほうが寒いですね
Today is colder than yesterday.

In my example, noun A is "the train" and noun B is "the bus". So the bus is more or less the train if I put より after train. "It is cheaper to go by bus than to go by train." So yes, it fits here. Now I should get this right.

②Going by bus is a method here.
Comments:
Nope. で、より、で is the right answer.
#10. 汽車「①で」行く「②より」バス「③で」行くほうが安いですよ。
Yes ok. So going by train is the method there (で) and it's being compared (より) with going by bus (で). So I shouldn't jump to conclusion that what precedes a ほう is automatically の (or が).
Ok, let's learn from this and move on.
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#11.今日はおととい「①より」暑いけれど、きのう「②ほど」暑くない。
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Ok, so there's a comparison taking place here and the only possible answer is 「より」for the first answer. The sentence is about "today". What precedes 「より」is what is more/less than the rest of the sentence, in this case おととい, "the day before yesterday". The description of the sentence is 「暑いけれど」. Logically, wouldn't that mean that the "day before yesterday" is warm? If I look at the translation however:
It's warmer today than it was the day before yesterday, but not as warm as yesterday.
②ほど not as much as... I'm 100% about this.
*
So I have the right answer but it doesn't *fit* with my understanding of より.
 

Zizka

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#12.君「①」、君のお父さん「②と」、お兄さん「③と」「④」、だれが朝一番早く起きますか?
Among you, your father, and your brother, who gets up the earliest in the morning.

Could I have a hint for this one, just a nudge not the answer please.
 

Toritoribe

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#10
Notice that 行く is a verb, not a noun, so it can modify ほう directly.
e.g.
汽車よりバスのほうが安い
(バス is a noun, so the possession の is necessary.)

高いより安いほうがいい
(It's not 安いほう. You know the reason now, right?)

#11
今日はおとといより暑い = おとといより今日は暑い = おとといより今日のほうが暑い

Note that より or ほう are not always mentioned in a sentence. For instance, when it's obvious that the speaker is talking about the day before yesterday from the context, just 今日のほうが暑い can convey the same thing.
e.g.
おとといは暑かったよね。
いや、今日のほうが暑いよ。
It was hot the day before yesterday, wasn't it?
No, it's hotter today (than the day before yesterday).


The second line means おとといより今日のほうが暑い.

#12
Isn't there a kanji between 3 and 4?
 

Zizka

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upload_2018-7-23_11-16-25.png

Nope none, weird right? (studying the rest of your reply).
 

Zizka

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高いより安いほうがいい
(It's not 安いほう. You know the reason now, right?)
Because 安い is an adjective not a noun?
Note that より or ほう are not always mentioned in a sentence. For instance, when it's obvious that the speaker is talking about the day before yesterday from the context, just 今日のほうが暑い can convey the same thing.
Ok wow I would've never guessed that.
So yes, a hint for #12 would be great because that double particle there is confusing me.
 

Toritoribe

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Because 安い is an adjective not a noun?
Exactly!:emoji_thumbsup:

#12
I see. I thought there was 中 between 3 and 4. Then, it's a variation of "Which, A or B?". Have you learned a construction such like "Which do you like, A or B?"?
 

Zizka

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Nope, not yet anyway.
Perhaps even a hint for ① would help to be honest. I would've imagined it'd a topical or が kind of thing but I don't understand the double particle there so it doesn't help.
 

Zizka

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13. 僕は数学「①より」生物「②の」ほうが好きだ。国語は、歴史
「③ほど」好きじゃない。
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So once again this a matter of comparing two things. ③ is ほど "not as much as" pattern and that's easy. For the rest:
upload_2018-7-23_12-56-52.png

The sentence is translated as: I like biology better than Math. So biology and Math are being compared. The noun which is more or less than something is biology: I like biology better than Math. That means that Noun B is biology and that Math is Noun A. So:
数学 is "math" (Noun B) and 生物 is biology (Noun A). より comes after noun A. So 生物「より」?
That doesn't make sense though because 生物 comes second in the sentence and would come right before the ほう part...?!
I think the right answer is ①より&②の but I don't feel it respects the pattern I've seen.
Ok, I have the right answer but I guess I misunderstood something regarding the より explanation.
 

Zizka

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#14. ニューヨーク「①と」東京「②と」「で」は、どちら「③の」ほうが人口が多いですか?
Which has the biggest population, New York or Tokyo?
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I'd say that the first two are just a list of possible choices. It's the third one which makes me hesitate. Whenever I'm confronted with ほう I hesitate. I'm going to go with the example Toritoribe provided and go with の: Noun A より Noun B のほうが~.
Granted, it's not a より construction in the sense that there's no より but の seems to be used with ほう although it's sometimes で. Only not this time, there's no で here, since we're talking about the population of some place. Either way, it looks like the exact same structure as #1 so yes, の. Well, yeah, essentially, it's #1 with different words.
Comments:
Gosh, the second one was で. It's probably this で:
で indicates the subject in this case, not meaning "way/means". This で is usually used for organizations or when connoting the subject is a side of two or in a group. Thus, あなたとわたし connotes that there are other people than you and me, and has a nuance "you and me, not other people", unlike が.
 

Zizka

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#15. あのスーパー「①の」買ったバナナ「②より」、このスーパー「③の」バナナ「④の」ほうが、ずっと安い。
The bananas at this supermarket are much cheaper than the bananas I bought at that supermarket.
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Before trying to attempt giving an answer I need to think about the sentence. All four words preceding the blanks are nouns, either ''banana'' or ''supermarket'' (being a place).
I'd say the first one is a possessive between the supermarket and the bought banana.
The first part is being compared to the second part, so より for the second answer. The third answer is same thing as the first answer for the same reason. As for the fourth one, it's to end up the comparison structure that goes along より, so の.
First one was a mistake. で because that's place the bananas were bought (the action of buying).
 
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