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Lesson 7:

Zizka

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Hello guys,
Introduction:
As was suggested by @Toritoribe , I'm going to create my lesson 7 here as opposed to in a blog post for more exposure and interaction.

For those who haven't read my blog series so far, I'm practicing Japanese particles by doing exercises from a book. I've done 180 so far and I'm now up to lesson 7 (each lesson has 30 問題 to do).

Not many people are reading and basically no one is commenting as I thought I'd try a different alternative. I'd say threads in the forum are much more active. Although Toritoribe is about the only to ever comment, the threads are seen by a lot more people so I'm thinking it can help more people. I'd probably like to archive all my questions somewhere as it contains a lot of information in the replies which could be useful for other people.

Methodology
I follow a fairly simple methodology. Each # is identified and the question typed. I put blanks between Japanese brackets: 「」and identify each blank with a number like so: 「①」. I then put the answer I've picked next to the number: 「①から」in bold.
Finally, underneath each sentence, I explain my reasoning for picking each answer. I use italics when referring to theory and regular format for my own personal comments.


I highlight incorrect answers in red and then add up a comment section to explain my mistake and try to find what was the good answer.

Each batch of exercise is done in groups of 5 to keep everything tidy. I'll then make another reply in the thread for the next group of 5 questions.

Toritoribe will usually reply and explain things and I then reply to his comments in a separate thread.

References:
I usually refer to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar to support my answers with theory. It's the best Japanese grammar book I've checked so far. I highly recommend it.

See you in #1 to 5!
 

Zizka

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Lesson 7 is about the following particles: と、や、だけ、しか、
くらい/ぐらい. I don't really expect any difficulties in particular. Let's see how it goes.
#1 to #5:
#1.赤い鉛筆は、これ「①だけ」ですか?はい、それ「②だけ」
です。
①だけ:only, just.
②だけ:only, just.

#2.僕は、和夫君「①や」幸二君「②や」文雄君「③や」かくれんぼをしました。
①や: non-exhaustive list of friends.
②や: non-exhaustive list of friends.
③や: non-exhaustive list of friends.
Comments:

The last one was と. I'm just getting started with this so I figured it'd be logical answer. So I looked up と to figure out why it's the right answer there. I couldn't find anything in A Dictionary of Japanese Particles. I don't understand why the names of the first two kids are followed with や but not the last one. I mean the last one is still part of an non-exhaustive list.

#3.わたしは、今朝コーヒー「①と」ジュース「②だけ」飲みました。
①と:and
②だけ:just

#4.僕は、今朝オムレツ「①と」サラダ「②しか」
食べませんでした。
①と:and...
②しか:used in a negative sentence; negatives everything else except that which precedes it. At first I had some doubts about this.


#5.星が、いくつ「①くらい」見えますか?
僕は三つ「②だけ」見えるよ。わたしは一つ「③だけ」見えないわ。
①くらい:approximately for tangible, countable things.
②だけ:just
③だけ:just しか:a silly mistake, I didn't notice the negative of the verb in the last sentence.
 

Zizka

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#6.あしたの遠足には、サンドイッチ「①と」果物「②と」あめを持って
行こう・
①と exhaustive list.
②と exhaustive list.

#7. 僕は、お握り「①と」お菓子「②や」飲み物をもって行くよ。
①と exhaustive list.
②や non-exhaustive list.

#8. わたしはお弁当「①と」飲み物「②しか」持って行かないわ。
①と exhaustive list.
②しか: nothing but... used in a negative sentence.

#9.それだけ?お弁当「①と」飲み物「②と」じゃおなかがすくでしょう?果物を二つ「③しか」持って行きなさいよ。
①と:and...
②と:and...
③ しか: So this sentence is both negative and a non-exhaustive list... Not sure!
Comments:
is simple enough, I missed the ''couple'' there. ②だけ I realize that it means ''only'' here... the thing is that I feel that, again, many particles could work at the same time. It's both a list and ''only''.

#10.今日の父兄会に、両親が来たのは、僕「①だけ」で、全部で三十人「②くらい」来たけれど、父親は五人「③しか」来なかった。
①だけ:only
②くらい:about
③しか: negative sentence, nothing but.

Yes!
I'll wait for some information about 9.2 and the few mistakes I did in the previous batch before carrying on.
 

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Most of us foreigners on the forum are not qualified to answer questions on Japanese grammar - especially something as confounding as particles. If an answer is fairly straightforward, or if I have found a way of thinking about a Japanese word or phrase or structure that helps me understands its usage, I will throw my two cents in.
In the case of your question #2 above concerning the non-exhaustive や, you still need the と to perform the same function as with in English. I played hide-and-seek with various friends including Kazuo (etc.).
 

Zizka

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Ok, I *think* I understand. I thought と & や were interchangeable in that aspect, one being precise and one being more vague/category-based.
Thanks for participating, I hope you post more in the future.
 

bentenmusume

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I feel fairly confident answering grammatical questions (I taught Japanese for a couple years when I was a grad student and firmly believe that particles aren't nearly as arcane as many learners make them out to be), but unfortunately I haven't had a lot of spare time lately.

I know we've had our differences in the past, but I can appreciate how much effort you're putting into this, and I'll try to show up from time to time to offer whatever insight I can (which isn't nearly as much as Toritoribe-san, but maybe I can help by giving the perspective of a second-language learner).

Zizka said:
Ok, I *think* I understand. I thought と & や were interchangeable in that aspect, one being precise and one being more vague/category-based.
Majestic-san already explained this, but yes, the "connective" と meaning "together with" cannot be replaced with や.

It might help clarify it even further if you think of that sentence as:
(和夫君や幸二君や文雄君)とかくれんぼをしました。

The bit in parentheses taken all together as a noun phrase are being marked with と.

Zizka said:
#4.僕は、今朝オムレツ「①と」サラダ「②しか」
食べませんでした。
①と:and...
②しか:used in a negative sentence; negatives everything else except that which precedes it. At first I had some doubts about this.
For questions like this, it might help if you explained what sort of doubts you had, and how you worked through them to arrive at the answer you did. At this stage in your learning process, it's important not just that you're getting the answers right, but that you're getting them right for the right reasons.

Zizka said:
#9.それだけ?お弁当「①と」飲み物「②と」じゃおなかがすくでしょう?果物を二つ「③しか」持って行きなさいよ。
①と:and...
②と:and...
③ しか: So this sentence is both negative and a non-exhaustive list... Not sure!
Comments:
③ is simple enough, I missed the ''couple'' there. ②だけ I realize that it means ''only'' here... the thing is that I feel that, again, many particles could work at the same time. It's both a list and ''only''.
For ③, what do you mean by saying you "missed the 'couple'?" Is there an accompanying English translation that we're not seeing? If so, you probably want to note that しか is ungrammatical here regardless of the intended meaning. As you saw in the above sentences, しか pairs up with negative verbs, and 持って行きなさい is an imperative, so しか can't be the answer here.

(Incidentally, another particle that could work in a similar construction is も, as in 果物も持っていきなさいよ, or "Take along some fruit, too!")

Also, I'm curious what other particles you think could work for ②. ~とじゃ isn't in and of itself an ungrammatical construction, but this sentence is clearly emphasizing "that's all", so だけ is far more natural. や would be ungrammatical here. The fact that sentence contains a list does not mean that any "listing" particle can be used anywhere. As Toritoribe-san has mentioned before, you have to consider how the particles connect with both the nouns they're marking and the predicate that follows.

(edit: fixed formatting)
 

Zizka

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I know we've had our differences in the past, but I can appreciate how much effort you're putting into this, and I'll try to show up from time to time to offer whatever insight I can (which isn't nearly as much as Toritoribe-san, but maybe I can help by giving the perspective of a second-language learner).
Yeah, I actually updated my original post saying my first approach wasn't my most efficient one. The thing is that I'm dealing with pretty severe depression and can take things really at heart sometimes so I always appreciate tactful replies which don't give me a hard time when I don't understand something because I'm really trying to understand. Like when people say "I already explained that" or "why do you think such a thing?!" or things like that it makes me feel bad a bit because I feel like they're chastised for not paying more attention, as if I was being lazy when I spent a lot of time to striving to "get it" so to speak. Just thought I'd put that out there to kind of explain my reaction to things. I'll use a separate thread to explain the rest.
 

Zizka

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It might help clarify it even further if you think of that sentence as:
(和夫君や幸二君や文雄君)とかくれんぼをしました。

The bit in parentheses taken all together as a noun phrase are being marked with と.
Yeah, I thought that might be it. Approaching it as a clause does make more sense and it's easier to understand.
For questions like this, it might help if you explained what sort of doubts you had, and how you worked through them to arrive at the answer you did. At this stage in your learning process, it's important not just that you're getting the answers right, but that you're getting them right for the right reasons.
Let's see:
#4.僕は、今朝オムレツ「①と」サラダ「②しか」
食べませんでした。

Ok I remember. The thing with ② is that I thought it was still part of the listing feature of と. Sort of like with #6:
#6.あしたの遠足には、サンドイッチ「①と」果物「②と」あめを持って行こう・

In #6, each item being listed is followed by と. #4 four has the same format of items being listed with と with the difference of しか being necessary to indicate just that and nothing else. This is a recurrent problem of mine with particles where I'll hesitate when two particles are possible at one spot. The idea that even if two particles could work, the most precise meaning needs to take precedence. To my eyes, the second と is still part of the list is what I'm trying to say but if I wrote that, then it'd miss the meaning of nothing but entirely.

#9.それだけ?お弁当「①と」飲み物「②と」じゃおなかがすくでしょう?果物を二つ「③しか」持って行きなさいよ。
I underlined the part I meant, which means "couple". When there's a number identified, I need to keep my eyes open for くらい/ぐらい.

Also, I'm curious what other particles you think could work for ②.
I honestly would've said だけ but you already said it.
 

Zizka

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#11.わたし、今日二百円「①しか」持っていないの。恵三君、五百えん「②くらい」貸してくれない。
①:I have nothing but 200 yen. Everything works well here, the sentence is negative.
②:approximate: about 500 yen.
Comments: it's ぐらい not くらい. There are two pronunciations for the term.

#12. あなたの家から駅まで車でどれ「①ぐらい」かかりますか?
①I'd say it's an approximate here in the sense of: "About how much time does it take you to go from x to y."
Comments: I wrote ぐらい this time but it was くらい. I still think it's the right answer but I don't know why sometimes it's one spelling and sometimes it's another.

#13. 東京から札幌まで何キロ「①くらい/ぐらい」ありますか。
①Same thing as the previous sentence. I looked my book and there's no mention as to why it's sometimes くらい, sometimes ぐらい. I'm fairly certain it's a phonetic thing of preceding sounds but I haven't found any conclusive answers about this just yet.

#14. 僕の友達「①や」先生は、寒い寒いと言っているけれど、これ「②くらい/ぐらい」の寒さは平気だよ。僕はTシャツ一枚「③しか」着ていないよ。
non-extensive list, my friends, teacher and people like that.
②This is a new function I haven't seen yet in the previous sentences. I think here it's the function of belittle something.
③I'm wearing nothing but a t-shirt.

#15. ビーフ「①と」チキン「②と」どちらが好きですか?
①&② Exhaustive listing of objects; beef and chicken in that case.

So no mistakes in that bunch. I just need to find out why it's sometimes ぐらい/くらい。
 

Zizka

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#16.「君を愛しているよ」「①と」言って欲しいのに、喫茶店
「②や」レストランに入っても、彼は黙っている「③だけ」です。
quotation.
②Places like that.
③He just remains quiet.
Ok.

#17. 今年は、一週間「①しか」休みがとれないから、旅行は中国「②だけ」にしようと思ったけれど、もう二日「③ぐらい/くらい」休みが取れそうだから、タイにも行こうと思う。
nothing but...
just
approximately
Ok.

#18.今晩のおかずこれ「①だけ」「②しか」ないの?サラダ「③くらい/ぐらい」食べたいな。
①&② just that and nothing else. I'm not sure about having two juxtaposition particles here.
belittling.
Ok.

#19.今日の数学の宿題は二ページ「①しか」あのに、まだ半分
「②ぐらい/くらい」出来ていない。
nothing but.
approximately
Comments:
I went to quickly here. The first clause isn't even negative, so the right answer is ①だけ. For the second one, it's a negative sentence of only but so ②しか. I could've gotten both of these ones.

#20.あしたは、京都「①?」奈良へ修学旅行に行くのだと思うと、うれしくて、二時間「②ぐあり」「③しか」眠れなかった。
about...
just that nothing else in negative sentence.
Comments:
I could've guessed the first one but I preferred leaving it blank as I wasn't too sure about it and might as well learn something from it.
I was right about ②&③. ① was や. I wouldn't have guessed it.
I think it's indicates that an action is immediately followed by another action but I'm not sure because 京都 is not an action is it's probably not it. I don't really know why it's や. You could stretch your imagination and say that it's used in the sense of: non-exhaustive listing as in he thinks about not just the city but everything that goes along a trip to the city (everything peripheral).
That's it for lesson 7, only 20 exercises in this one instead of 30.
 

bentenmusume

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Zizka said:
Yeah, I actually updated my original post saying my first approach wasn't my most efficient one.
I noticed that after the fact, and appreciate it. (Again, not because I was trying to prove you "wrong", but because it's good to see you following an approach that will probably be more beneficial for you learning the language in the long run.)

Zizka said:
The thing is that I'm dealing with pretty severe depression and can take things really at heart sometimes so I always appreciate tactful replies which don't give me a hard time when I don't understand something because I'm really trying to understand.
This is something I was unaware of. Thank you for making this clear, and I'll definitely keep it in mind when responding to your posts.

Zizka said:
Ok I remember. The thing with ② is that I thought it was still part of the listing feature of と. Sort of like with #6:
#6.あしたの遠足には、サンドイッチ「①と」果物「②と」あめを持って行こう・

In #6, each item being listed is followed by と. #4 four has the same format of items being listed with と with the difference of しか being necessary to indicate just that and nothing else. This is a recurrent problem of mine with particles where I'll hesitate when two particles are possible at one spot. The idea that even if two particles could work, the most precise meaning needs to take precedence. To my eyes, the second と is still part of the list is what I'm trying to say but if I wrote that, then it'd miss the meaning of nothing but entirely.
Hmm. That's kind of it.

Note that #6 has と following both nouns, but there is also a third noun after that followed by を, marking all the nouns together as the direct object. (Again, this might be easier to think of as (サンドイッチと果物とあめ)を持っていこう, as the を is modifying the whole group, not just あめ).

This wouldn't be the case if you tried to say 僕は、今朝オムレツとサラダと食べませんでした。

Note, also, that a big difference is that the verb in #4 is negative, and the verb in #6 isn't (it's volitional). Using the same pattern and saying 僕は、今朝オムレツとサラダを食べませんでした, while not ungrammatical strictly speaking, is extremely unnatural. The "exhaustive" nature of と (and を, for that matter, if you tried to use it with a negative), means that this would be essentially be saying "What I didn't eat was an omelette and a salad (everything else, I did eat!)" which is not only a somewhat awkward nuance, but clearly not the meaning intended here.

オムレツとサラダ食べませんでした。

Would be a natural utterance in certain contexts, if what you meant was "I didn't eat the omelette or salad...(but I did eat other stuff that was available.)" Note, again, that this meaning is entirely opposite of that with しか in terms of what you did and didn't eat.

Does this help a bit?

Zizka said:
I looked my book and there's no mention as to why it's sometimes くらい, sometimes ぐらい. I'm fairly certain it's a phonetic thing of preceding sounds but I haven't found any conclusive answers about this just yet.
It's even more interchangeable than that. In fact, it's so interchangeable that it's essentially not worth it to worry about any distinction at all, especially at this point in your studies. Compared to everything else you're asking about, there will literally never be a case when one is valid and the other is not.
 

Zizka

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Note that #6 has と following both nouns, but there is also a third noun after that followed by を, marking all the nouns together as the direct object. (Again, this might be easier to think of as (サンドイッチと果物とあめ)を持っていこう, as the を is modifying the whole group, not just あめ).
Ahhh ok so basically you don't really let a と there to dry, it's often part as a previous whole which then gets further described by another particle down the line.

It's even more interchangeable than that. In fact, it's so interchangeable that it's essentially not worth it to worry about any distinction at all, especially at this point in your studies. Compared to everything else you're asking about, there will literally never be a case when one is correct and the other is not.
Ok then, one less thing to worry about.

As for the rest, I still have a bit of trouble getting it and I'll read it again after a break to get a fresh look in it.
 

bentenmusume

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Zizka said:
#19.今日の数学の宿題は二ページ「①しか」あのに、まだ半分
「②ぐらい/くらい」出来ていない。
①nothing but.
②approximately
Comments:
I went to quickly here. The first clause isn't even negative, so the right answer is ①だけ. For the second one, it's a negative sentence of only but so ②しか. I could've gotten both of these ones.
I'm assuming that 「あのに」 is a typo for 「あるのに」? だけ isn't inconceivable for ①, but も is also valid here (meaning "It's two whole pages, but I've only made it through half!"), and perhaps more natural absent any larger context. Note that 半分ぐらいしかできていない would also be correct and quite natural here.

Zizka said:
#20.あしたは、京都「①?」奈良へ修学旅行に行くのだと思うと、うれしくて、二時間「②ぐあり」「③しか」眠れなかった。
② about...
③ just that nothing else in negative sentence.
Comments:
I could've guessed the first one but I preferred leaving it blank as I wasn't too sure about it and might as well learn something from it.
I was right about ②&③. ① was や. I wouldn't have guessed it.
I think it's indicates that an action is immediately followed by another action but I'm not sure because 京都 is not an action is it's probably not it. I don't really know why it's や. You could stretch your imagination and say that it's used in the sense of: non-exhaustive listing as in he thinks about not just the city but everything that goes along a trip to the city (everything peripheral).
That's not what "non-exhaustive listing" means. It would imply that he's also going to other places (perhaps 大阪 or 滋賀 ) but isn't mentioning them. と would also be valid if 京都 and 奈良 were the only places he was going.

Zizka said:
I think it's indicates that an action is immediately followed by another action but I'm not sure because 京都 is not an action is it's probably not it.
Not sure exactly what you mean by this. Are you perhaps referring to the 「~(plain form verb)や否や」 construction? If so, that is (as you correctly note) a completely different structure that is inapplicable here, as 京都 is not a verb/action.

Zizka said:
#18.今晩のおかずこれ「①だけ」「②しか」ないの?サラダ「③くらい/ぐらい」食べたいな。
①&② just that and nothing else. I'm not sure about having two juxtaposition particles here.
This is perfectly valid, as しか can double up with other particles. You might also find, i.e., 東京にしか行かなかった (" I only went to Tokyo."/"I didn't go anywhere but Tokyo.") With particles like が and を, しか will most often replace the main particle.

Zizka said:
サラダ「③くらい/ぐらい」食べたいな。
③belittling.
"Belittling" is perhaps not the best way to universally interpret くらい. The nuance is somewhat closer to "at least this"/"at least that much" here. Note that サラダ食べたいな would also be valid here.
 
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bentenmusume

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Zizka said:
Ahhh ok so basically you don't really let a と there to dry, it's often part as a previous whole which then gets further described by another particle down the line.
Kind of, though I don't want to say "always" as you do have constructions like AとBとどちらが好きですか? as you've seen elsewhere.

It's important to observe the way と works, as well as the way that しか functions with negative verbs.
 

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"Belittling" is perhaps not the best way to universally interpret くらい. The nuance is somewhat closer to "at least this"/"at least that much" here. Note that サラダ食べたいな would also be valid here.
Would you say it's the case for this one though or is it never really the case:
#14. 僕の友達「①や」先生は、寒い寒いと言っているけれど、これ「②くらい/ぐらい」の寒さは平気だよ。僕はTシャツ一枚「③しか」着ていないよ。
 

Zizka

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I'm assuming that 「あのに」 is a typo for 「あるのに」? だけ isn't inconceivable for ①, but も is also valid here (meaning "It's two whole pages, but I've only made it through half!"), and perhaps more natural absent any larger context. Note that 半分ぐらいしかできていない would also be correct and quite natural here.
Doesn't seem to be the case, I just double-checked. According to the answer key, ① is indeed だけ:
upload_2018-7-22_13-0-44.png

It was indeed a typo though:
#19.今日の数学の宿題は二ページ「①しか」なのに、まだ半分
「②ぐらい/くらい」出来ていない。
 

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bentenmusume

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Zizka said:
Would you say it's the case for this one though or is it never really the case:
#14. 僕の友達「①や」先生は、寒い寒いと言っているけれど、これ「②くらい/ぐらい」の寒さは平気だよ。僕はTシャツ一枚「③しか」着ていないよ。
Yes, I suppose it's a valid interpretation there. My point was more that it's probably better in the long run to focus on the "defining an extent" meaning of くらい/ぐらい and let the subtle distinctions come from there. At the end of the day, you don't want to be thinking in terms of English either way, since there's never going to be a one-to-one correspondence.

Zizka said:
Doesn't seem to be the case, I just double-checked. According to the answer key, ① is indeed だけ:
I just recalled that も is outside the scope of the chapter, so I probably shouldn't have brought it up. Nevertheless, 2ページもあるのに is definitely a valid construction when you want to emphasize that two pages is a lot (whether or not it is the "right" answer as given by the answer key for this particular lesson/chapter).

Zizka said:
It was indeed a typo though:
#19.今日の数学の宿題は二ページ「①しか」なのに、まだ半分
「②ぐらい/くらい」出来ていない。
This appears to be a typo again, so now I'm not certain.

Is it 今日の数学の宿題は二ページ「①」ないのに
or
今日の数学の宿題は二ページ「①」あるのに

If it's the former (negative verb ない), then しか is the only valid answer.
If it's the latter (affirmative verb ある) then しか is invalid.
 

Zizka

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upload_2018-7-22_13-21-49.png

That's a screenshot of the sentence from the book.
 

bentenmusume

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Aha! Then that makes it perfectly clear. There's no verb at all, which means that だけ is the only valid answer. (Both しか or も would require a verb, the former negative and the latter affirmative.)

(Sorry, because of your initial post I got it in my head that there was one verb or another.)
 

Toritoribe

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くらい and ぐらい were strictly distinguished in usage, but practically there is no problem with thinking that they are completely interchangeable nowadays.
きょうのことばメモ: 「くらい」の清濁 (all in Japanese)

As for the difference between と and や when listing examples, と can be attached also to the last noun (speaking strictly, this is more likely the original usage), but the last と is usually not used now. On the other hand, や is not attached to the last one. That's another reason や can't be correct for #2-3. Also, as already mentioned, と is "with" which is necessary to connect to かくれんぼをしました there, so these kinds of case particles can't be omitted even と is attached to the last noun.
e.g.
コーヒーとジュース(と)を飲みました。
(the second と is usually omitted, but を is necessary.)

コーヒーやジュースを飲みました。
×コーヒーやジュースやを飲みました。
 
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