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Kami

chimera

後輩
3 Dec 2006
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This is a question about Tocharians of Tarim Sinkiang. Some Japanese words may derive from the west, such as Turkic-Mongol "cham" meaning "goat-wool tent", and which became "Khan" (Jinghiz Khan), and perhaps "kami". As "kamedan" that word went to China and became "shendai", and returned as "Shinto". Chinese "camuca" as "silk" may be connected with "cham" and "khamlat" meaning fine goat-wool cloth, which is "camelot" cloth of Europe and a possible name of an ancient British kingdom. It may be in "kamaika" , the paper kimono. The "chamarre" robe became "chimere" in Britain.
The Tocharian "yalu" was a goat, from the sacred goat of Assyria and Babylon, "yalu" from W`L "to ascend". The Yalu river of Korea is possibly this word.
What is your opinion?
chimera
 
This is a question about Tocharians of Tarim Sinkiang. Some Japanese words may derive from the west, such as Turkic-Mongol "cham" meaning "goat-wool tent", and which became "Khan" (Jinghiz Khan), and perhaps "kami". As "kamedan" that word went to China and became "shendai", and returned as "Shinto". Chinese "camuca" as "silk" may be connected with "cham" and "khamlat" meaning fine goat-wool cloth, which is "camelot" cloth of Europe and a possible name of an ancient British kingdom. It may be in "kamaika" , the paper kimono. The "chamarre" robe became "chimere" in Britain.
The Tocharian "yalu" was a goat, from the sacred goat of Assyria and Babylon, "yalu" from W`L "to ascend". The Yalu river of Korea is possibly this word.
What is your opinion?
chimera

I'm no linguist and do not have much knowledge about Chinese and Korean, so I'm not entitled to make any valid comment... but without knowing what "kamedan" means and when the word "shendai" and "shinto" started to be used it's hard even to guess whether your theory is a wild guess or one of the possibilities.
The word "kami" already existed in Nara period (8th century) but the pronunciation may not be the same as the word "kami" of today.
ツ神 and ツ湘」 are both pronounced "kami" today, but they were different in Nara period. Maybe analyzing Japanese word written in Roman alphabets itself can be misleading.

Sorry for my non-academic comments. Your idea sounds very interesting, but this is what I feel about it at the same time.

PS. Out of curiosity I would like to ask what "camelot cloth of Europe" means.
Camelot (with capital C) in English is a name of place related to King Arthur, in French "camelot" means pedlar/peddler. I don't know how much significance the goat has/had in each language (or culture) but cannot see immediate connection with these words and the goat.
 
"Kamedan" as "family shrine" , and changing to Chinese "shendai" /"Shinto", is in a linguistic text on Japanese/Ainu/ Chinese word-borrowing. Yes, there are 2 forms of /k/, but loan-words from different events would probably have different spelling. My general point is the interactions along the Silk Road. The Oxford Dict. says that chamarre/chimere robes of British kings and bishops were made of camelot cloth of fine goatwool,from "seil el KEMel" the Angora goat and "KHAMlat" fine cloth. This French robe of nobility (and perhaps of Camelot as a state institution) would have been downgraded in the reversals of the French Revolution to mean just rubbish. But it is worn at Windsor Castle today (and in
US Episcopal churches). And the "yalu" deer of Tocharians, which is a spiritual symbol across Eurasia, seems to be the Yale goat, a national symbol carved above Windsor and on the UK Coat of Arms. Japan and west Europeans share some rituals in common.
chimera
 
The word "chimere" was derived from Middle English chimmer or chemeyr, and these words came from Old French, meaning "sheepskin coat".
I cannot find any connection with goat so far.
http://www.cgxchange.org/portal/ser...i/entry_main/50038280?case_id=Br6z-iRTTaW-805

What I meant "different pronunciation" mean "mi" of two different kami ツ(ツ神 and ツ湘」 for instance.)

I repeat that your thought is very interesting, but it is impossible to tell whether it is just a coincidence or real connection just from one example, especially when it is rather jumping from one point to another than a line.
I don't deny the possible exchange of words and things through Silk Road, but...
 
This is a question about Tocharians of Tarim Sinkiang.perhaps "kami". As "kamedan" that word went to China and became "shendai", and returned as "Shinto". Chinese "camuca" as "silk" may be connected with "cham" and "khamlat" meaning fine goat-wool cloth.

The Tocharian "yalu" was a goat, from the sacred goat of Assyria and Babylon, "yalu" from W`L "to ascend". The Yalu river of Korea is possibly this word.


LOL there is one recent supremist movement in claiming Tarim Civilization was European-origin LOL.


China's family shrine was a traditional cultural aspect of ancient Bai Yue indigenous people in southern China.Hence,Japan's Shinto is a native religion.By the way,the English word silk is a Chinese loanword transliteration.


Yalu River doesn't belong to Korea,it's where draws the borderline between China and Korea un-interruptedly for over 1500 years.Yalu in Manchu means terrains and Jilin's ( China's southern NE province borders N Korea ) original complete Manchu name was Jilin-Wula meaning sinking river in Manchu,no linguistic relationship to European languages.China's NE region Nomadic clans customary named their tribes and dwellings after nature and landscape of the area.
 
The chamarre /zimarra robe was worn in Spain by zamarrones who wore a goat-head on their head. Greek Chimera war-goddess was a "chimaira" goat, and Sanskrit "camara" is a yak-tail tassel of kings. Thailand's royal Skt."chamara" tassel is made of "chamari" deer-hair. Camelot cloth is made of fine Angora wool, like silk, and like "camuca. kamaika". Thus the best-quality silky cloth is connected with religion and kings, and the "cam" type of words of goats/deer.
The Manchu "yalu" meaning terrains and territory is interesting. The sacred deer represents the gods, and goats were war-gods, as with Scythians who only had one temple - the yearly sacrifice of a goat to Ares ram of war. "Territory" (terre. tir. Tara) may be in "tir" a mountain-goat of Himalayas. "Hima" in that word meaning "winter land", is Sanskrit "hima" meaning "animal of 1 winter" and thus "cHIMAira" goat. The Korean-Chinese "Yalu" of Manchu territory appears to connect with the Tocharian-Assyrian "yalu" symbol of land of the "kami".
chimera
 
Aha ... it has reared it's ugly head,the unacademic Scythian-Assyrian theory claims earlier cultural attributions to East Asian civilization in ancient time.:(
 
Some Japanese words may derive from the west,such as Turkic-Mongol "cham" meaning "goat-wool tent", and which became "Khan" (Jinghiz Khan).


LOL ... The Turkic-Mongol word " khan " means leader or chieftain,it's simple as that.Mongol-Xiongnu tribe had " dan-yi " for leader.Mongols customary don't have family names,modern day native Mongolians in Outer Mongolia only use given names.


LOL Internet is never short of baffoons.:(
 
Manchu words were adopted in China, and Chinese "camuca" was adopted in Persia. Buddhism came from some place, which is an ugly theory in your view. Why are Assyrians-Scythians unable to be the source of loan-words?
chimera
 
1.Ugor cham,kami =spirit,holy
Turkic kam =shaman,holy
Japanese kami =godly spirit
Hawaian hemo-lele =holy spirit
 
Manchu words were adopted in China, and Chinese "camuca" was adopted in Persia. Buddhism came from some place, which is an ugly theory in your view.


Then,tell me 1 or 2 Manchu loanwords exist in Chinese language and which Chinese dialect has been influenced by Manchu language ? I have one romanization Manchu transliterated loanword " sachima " in Mandarin,do you know what this word means ?

Chinese language belongs to Sino-Tibetan linguistic family,it's monosyllabic.There was no such word sounds close to " camuca " in any existent Chinese tongues.The English word " silk " is a transliteration of Chinese " si " for silk which was a pure Chinese invention

Buddhism came from India through what's now Chinese territory of Tibet,Hindu religious cultural aspects had most profound influence on ancient China than Arab and Indo-European civilizations.
 
Well shinto, means "way of the Kami" or in other words "way of the spirit"👍
And in my language chamarre is "chamarra" and it's a very warm cloth, i think is a mix of some words given by Spain at the old times of the american conquest


for god's sake, i'm sick again :atchoo:
 
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