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Japan's Changing "Culture" and "Tradition"

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McTojo

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5 Oct 2005
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Great dispensation of knowledge and resources !

All of the feedback I got from you guys was great ! Yes, there are alot of people who would rather see Japan come to terms with her war past than to see a sort of right-wing resurgence.

Thanks to posts like these I've gained immense knowledge on how the world view's latter day and present day Japan from a very broad perspective. Since taking up the mantle of Hideki Tojo I have struggle with unpleasant dreams and nightmares and have even experiencing forms of meloncholy at times.

My fascination with Japan never began with Tojo. But I think Tojo and I share the same conviction which is the realization of a great and homogeneous Japan with very little to no influence from the West. I imagine myself a hero of Japan but I too will fade away. I remember the words of Douglas MacArthur "Old heroes never die, they just fade away." If the Japanese can't stand for something that they believe in strongly, regardless of historical accuracies & inaccuracies, then the Japanese will fall for anything that is deemed not popular with the rest of the world.

I remember my first year in Japan like I remember my first taste of nihonshu and the Jukujo like it was yesterday with my eye's closed. When I open my eye's now all I see is a mere shadow of what was once a paradigm of heaven. Only a resistance to culture is what's left like a silhouette against a black background with no shape and voided out; emptiness and barren like a hollowed out tree, sapless and lifeless people who walk around like drones talking on cellphones. Where has the soul of Japan gone ?

My purpose now is defined by what I love to do. Things like travel and philandering jukujo and enjoying nihonshu.
 
McTojo said:
My fascination with Japan never began with Tojo. But I think Tojo and I share the same conviction which is the realization of a great and homogeneous Japan with very little to no influence from the West.

And what percentage of the current Japanese population want that. Nobody forced them to wear Western clothes, watch Western movies, eat Western food and especially use so many Western (mostly English) words in their language. A lot of the western influence in Japan has come from the USA. But just look at Europe and you'll see how easy it can be not to become so Americanised. The French use much less English words, eat much less "imported food" (esp. fastfood) and watch less Hollywood movies than the Japanese. Even in modern China, foreign companies like McDonald have names in kanji, but Japan did not even bother to write those names in katakana. In fact, even old traditional companies like Mitsukoshi now write their name in Latin alphabet most of the time. There are more English only signs in Japan than I have seen anywhere in a non English speaking country. This is because the Japanese want it like that. So you are very odd to want to go against the own will of the majority of the Japanese.

Btw, are you Japanese-American ? If you are not, how can you "help Japan to get rid of its Western influence ?" If you are, what did you (grand)parents go to the US ?
 
There's nothing wrong with wearing western clothes or listening to western music. It's when Japanese completely dumb traditional values for western value that I worry about. Sure, somethings need to be changed and I'm not trying to figure a way to eradicate western influence from Japan either.

It's just that some things are better left unchanged.
 
McTojo said:
It's when Japanese completely dumb traditional values for western value that I worry about.

Do you mean dumping Chinese values (esp. Confucianism) for modern, international values ? The only values I have seen changing in modern Japan are that young people use less keigo and that the seniority system becoming less popular. These are Confucian values. If that is not what you mean, give me examples of other traditional values that are changing. Japan is mostly Westernized in the surface (clothes, food, movies, music...) but hardly at all in matters of values.
 
Maciamo said:
Do you mean dumping Chinese values (esp. Confucianism) for modern, international values ? The only values I have seen changing in modern Japan are that young people use less keigo and that the seniority system becoming less popular. These are Confucian values. If that is not what you mean, give me examples of other traditional values that are changing. Japan is mostly Westernized in the surface (clothes, food, movies, music...) but hardly at all in matters of values.

Young Japanese people use less Keigo because they don't know it and the seniority system is becoming less popular because of changing trends in the workforce due to the economy,population.,etc. And when you mention confucian values I would bet even odds that most Japanese wouldn't know anything about how it relates to them.

When I refer to values I actually mean mannerisms. When I ride the train everyday to work young people sit in the green seats with total disregard for elderly people and most are not courteous enough to move. Many young girls do their make-up on the train with no regard to personal privacy. I've seen these same young girls talk on the phone while riding on the train and buses and in public office spaces. Homocidal crimes used to be small little isolated incidents that happened ever now and then now you see it on the news almost everyday. Nobody wants to be accountable for anybody or anything. The divorce rate is increasing every year whereas before getting a divorce was tabboo. And sure, there are legitimate reasons for divorce but most are out of personal reason other than the usual domestic violence issues.

This is just a little bit...
 
What do changing mannerisms have to do with western influence though? And what western influences need to be removed in order for Japanese mannerisms to come back? And by the way, I'm also interested to know, are you Japanese-American?
 
McTojo said:
When I refer to values I actually mean mannerisms. When I ride the train everyday to work young people sit in the green seats with total disregard for elderly people and most are not courteous enough to move.

Indeed, and that is something I rarely see in Europe. Courtesy seem to be more popular in the West, actually. Do you often see a Japanese man opening the door for a woman ? That's partly why many Japanese girls like Western men (of course, only well-educated Western men).

Many young girls do their make-up on the train with no regard to personal privacy.

Very Japanese phenomenon. I had never seen that in Europe, and I have taken the subway in over 10 cities.

I've seen these same young girls talk on the phone while riding on the train and buses and in public office spaces.

Mobile phones are something new in every country. Are you implying that it is a "Western value" to talk on the phone while on the train ?

Homocidal crimes used to be small little isolated incidents that happened ever now and then now you see it on the news almost everyday.

That's right. In Belgium, I hardly ever hear such horrible crime stories. The worst to made the news were some pedophiles who had murdered some girls, but that was over 10 years ago. I hear about juvenile crimes, pedophiles kidnapping and killing little girls, or other horrible crime every month in Japan. Again, why do you think this is a Western thing (probably an American problem, but hardly more), and why a value ? I am not sure if you know about infanticide, but this was clearly part of Japanese culture until recently. So much that there are hundreds of temples with jizo or kokeshi to remember every single child murdered by their parents. It's enough to shock almost any Westerner.

Nobody wants to be accountable for anybody or anything.

There cannot be a better example of something caused by the East Asian colectivist mentality. Western culture (although less in Southern Europe) is characterised by strong individualism, which means that people take initiative and want responsibilities. In Japan, it's all the opposite. People reject responsibilities to their superiors and refuse to act without their superior's consent if it's not "in the book". I think the war criminal trial after WWII was a good example of responsibility being relegated to the superior, as far as the emperor - who in return was made immune from any responsibility due to his divine status. :eek:

The divorce rate is increasing every year whereas before getting a divorce was tabboo.

The same is true in every Western country. Actually, countries like Ireland or Italy still have a much lower divorce rate than Japan, which shows that it is unrelated to "Westernness". 50 years ago, it would have been a terrible shame to divorce in most European countries. It all changed with the sex liberation of the 1970's (well at least in the US, UK, France, Scandinavia and Japan...). Note thate the Japanese attitude to sex is much more "careless" and liberal than in most European countries (see promiscous youth and AIDS). The Japanese have sex earlier than most Northern Europeans, and certainly lack the Western/Christian inhibition and feeling of "shame" toward sex.

So all your arguments are invalid, because they are not about "values", or about values that are in fact typically Japanese rather than Western, or not more Western and Japanese. It seems that you have very little knowledge about "Western culture" and wrongly assimilate it with a fractional view of US society only.
 
Maciamo said:
Indeed, and that is something I rarely see in Europe. Courtesy seem to be more popular in the West, actually. Do you often see a Japanese man opening the door for a woman ? That's partly why many Japanese girls like Western men (of course, only well-educated Western men).



Very Japanese phenomenon. I had never seen that in Europe, and I have taken the subway in over 10 cities.



Mobile phones are something new in every country. Are you implying that it is a "Western value" to talk on the phone while on the train ?



That's right. In Belgium, I hardly ever hear such horrible crime stories. The worst to made the news were some pedophiles who had murdered some girls, but that was over 10 years ago. I hear about juvenile crimes, pedophiles kidnapping and killing little girls, or other horrible crime every month in Japan. Again, why do you think this is a Western thing (probably an American problem, but hardly more), and why a value ? I am not sure if you know about infanticide, but this was clearly part of Japanese culture until recently. So much that there are hundreds of temples with jizo or kokeshi to remember every single child murdered by their parents. It's enough to shock almost any Westerner.



There cannot be a better example of something caused by the East Asian colectivist mentality. Western culture (although less in Southern Europe) is characterised by strong individualism, which means that people take initiative and want responsibilities. In Japan, it's all the opposite. People reject responsibilities to their superiors and refuse to act without their superior's consent if it's not "in the book". I think the war criminal trial after WWII was a good example of responsibility being relegated to the superior, as far as the emperor - who in return was made immune from any responsibility due to his divine status. :eek:



The same is true in every Western country. Actually, countries like Ireland or Italy still have a much lower divorce rate than Japan, which shows that it is unrelated to "Westernness". 50 years ago, it would have been a terrible shame to divorce in most European countries. It all changed with the sex liberation of the 1970's (well at least in the US, UK, France, Scandinavia and Japan...). Note thate the Japanese attitude to sex is much more "careless" and liberal than in most European countries (see promiscous youth and AIDS). The Japanese have sex earlier than most Northern Europeans, and certainly lack the Western/Christian inhibition and feeling of "shame" toward sex.

So all your arguments are invalid, because they are not about "values", or about values that are in fact typically Japanese rather than Western, or not more Western and Japanese. It seems that you have very little knowledge about "Western culture" and wrongly assimilate it with a fractional view of US society only.

I wasn't arguing the differences between western and Japanese values, where did that come from Maciamo ? I was only telling you what I experienced in relation to how Japan is changing, that's it...

For future references Maciamo, so that you don't get confused. If I argue a point I will remember to give you two or three clear distinctions of what I'm arguing about.
 
Bucko said:
What do changing mannerisms have to do with western influence though? And what western influences need to be removed in order for Japanese mannerisms to come back? And by the way, I'm also interested to know, are you Japanese-American?
Bukco,

Like I said to Maciamo, I was telling you of some experiences I had but you two seem to take everything that I say out of context. I never compared western values with Japanese values... If I do then believe me they will be very clear so that anyone can understand it.
 
I think it's because you said this, McTojo:

McTojo said:
I think Tojo and I share the same conviction which is the realization of a great and homogeneous Japan with very little to no influence from the West.

Your phrasing implies that for Japan to be "great and homogeneous", it should ideally have little or no influence from the West. Which in turn would mean that you see Western influence on Japan as negative. You also said:

It's when Japanese completely dumb traditional values for western value that I worry about.

which again implies that "Japanese traditional" values are somehow better than Western values. But, in the same post you said:

somethings need to be changed and I'm not trying to figure a way to eradicate western influence from Japan either.

which makes me deduce that your concern isn't really about "Easternness" or "Westernness" of values, but about certain behaviours - or, as you put it yourself, mannerisms. To me it seems like concern about certain specific social behaviours some of which you have listed:

When I ride the train everyday to work young people sit in the green seats with total disregard for elderly people and most are not courteous enough to move. Many young girls do their make-up on the train with no regard to personal privacy. I've seen these same young girls talk on the phone while riding on the train and buses and in public office spaces. Homocidal crimes used to be small little isolated incidents that happened ever now and then now you see it on the news almost everyday. Nobody wants to be accountable for anybody or anything. The divorce rate is increasing every year whereas before getting a divorce was tabboo.

People always complain about such things! Every single generation, people say "there is less respect for elderly people, there is more violent crime, there is more divorce/broken relationships, young people do this that and the other..." and so on... It happens within the own one country, for example in the UK people say these things, too. We don't compare really with other cultures and say it is such-and-such "influence", but people still comment on behaviours. It's part of changes in society which naturally happen.
 
Kinsao said:
Kinsao said:
which makes me deduce that your concern isn't really about "Easternness" or "Westernness" of values, but about certain behaviours - or, as you put it yourself, mannerisms. To me it seems like concern about certain specific social behaviours some of which you have listed:.

Now, that's more like it Kinsao and you and Maciamo made your own deductions based off of what you had thought which was completely different than what I was thinking when I posted it. Again, if I present an argument I will present it with no ambiguity or loose statements. If I post something it will be clear and with a strong premises so that people clearly understand what I'm saying.



Kinsao said:
People always complain about such things! Every single generation, people say "there is less respect for elderly people, there is more violent crime, there is more divorce/broken relationships, young people do this that and the other..." and so on... It happens within the own one country, for example in the UK people say these things, too. We don't compare really with other cultures and say it is such-and-such "influence", but people still comment on behaviours. It's part of changes in society which naturally happen.

Sure, people always complain about such things but I was driving a point about the Japanese in Japan based off of my experience living and working here, not about the changing societies/
 
I'll be the first to admit that after reading the discussion thus far I'm a bit lost, so I don't know how to respond as yet. The reason I'm lost is that I don't have a clear sense of what exactly you're saying because, in this thread, everytime someone responds to what you're saying, you reply that that's not what you're saying, that your thoughts are completely different and that your thoughts are clearly laid out.

Thus:

For future references Maciamo, so that you don't get confused. If I argue a point I will remember to give you two or three clear distinctions of what I'm arguing about.

Like I said to Maciamo, I was telling you of some experiences I had but you two seem to take everything that I say out of context. I never compared western values with Japanese values... If I do then believe me they will be very clear so that anyone can understand it.

Now, that's more like it Kinsao and you and Maciamo made your own deductions based off of what you had thought which was completely different than what I was thinking when I posted it. Again, if I present an argument I will present it with no ambiguity or loose statements. If I post something it will be clear and with a strong premises so that people clearly understand what I'm saying.

Yet you never clarify exactly, you just leave it for us to puzzle over. May I ask you go back to square one and explain what exactly you're trying to get at, if it's not about the values and not the mannerisms?
 
McTojo said:
But I think Tojo and I share the same conviction which is the realization of a great and homogeneous Japan with very little to no influence from the West.
There is no such thing as the "great and homogeneous Japan"- that was a myth cooked up in the wee hours of the Meiji period when Fukuzawa Yukichi invented the idea of a strong "Japanese nation-state united under the tennou of the royal clan going back 10,000 generations." Read Eric Hobsbawm's The Invention of Traditions for the general gist. Read studies in nihonjinron for historical details of distortion and myth-making under scrutinising fire.
McTojo said:
I remember the words of Douglas MacArthur "Old heroes never die, they just fade away."
Douglas MacArthur is remembered today more as a scheming, populist, war-mongering demagogue rather than the brilliant, loyal General he was made out to be. In fact, he quickly faded away soon after his speeches were delivered back in the US as his narrow, non-functional understanding of international relations became evident; e.g. his out-of-touch vision of "liberating" the PRC by expanding on the Korean War into an all-out WWIII nuclear style. ;-)
McTojo said:
If the Japanese can't stand for something that they believe in strongly, regardless of historical accuracies & inaccuracies, then the Japanese will fall for anything that is deemed not popular with the rest of the world.
If they have no regard for historical accuracy and don't mind inaccuracy, why would they care about falling for anything popular or not ? In fact believing strongly in misleading fantasies is the sure path to doom. It is often said that fanaticist, extremist ideas are the results of ignorance and emotional instability. I might suggest working on those - studying science and history is known to be a good start on the road to psychological well being. The choice laid before you is either full acceptance of reality or closing one's eyes to the complexity for intellectual immaturity. Escaping always looks easier and more glamourous as is holding onto illusions. Science can set you free, tomodachi-san. Embrace Enlightenment ! 👍
 
If they have no regard for historical accuracy and don't mind inaccuracy, why would they care about falling for anything popular or not ? In fact believing strongly in misleading fantasies is the sure path to doom. It is often said that fanaticist, extremist ideas are the results of ignorance and emotional instability. I might suggest working on those - studying science and history is known to be a good start on the road to psychological well being. The choice laid before you is either full acceptance of reality or closing one's eyes to the complexity for intellectual immaturity. Escaping always looks easier and more glamourous as is holding onto illusions. Science can set you free, tomodachi-san. Embrace Enlightenment !

Lexico is very much right. One's strength lies not in believing in something you know to be false deep inside, because that's just plain stupidity, naivite and moral weakness, no matter what culture you're looking at. It's also basically the definition of the word "delusional." Plus it's dangerous for future growth of any human being.
 
Desk of Tojo

Good morning my detractors,

I have no problem agreeing with what you wrote Lexico and Lastmagi and though you me use psycho-analytical innuendo's to allude to me I tell you from the start that I have always been at the top of my class in science and I'm not unstable emotionally nor mentally.

I think people in general, you included, choose to believe what you want to believe. And in a perfect world logic would rule but the reality is that logic doesn't rule anything. People choose to embrace ignorance because it's easier to accept than the truth(majority of the world). Rational and logical people are a minority and have a shorter shelf life.

Japan doesn't need an international consensus to tell it what it needs to do or how it should feel or think ladies and gentleman !
 
McTojo said:
Good morning my detractors,

I have no problem agreeing with what you wrote Lexico and Lastmagi and though you me use psycho-analytical innuendo's to allude to me I tell you from the start that I have always been at the top of my class in science and I'm not unstable emotionally nor mentally.
No, just crass, insensitive and lacking in social skills.

I think people in general, you included, choose to believe what you want to believe. And in a perfect world logic would rule but the reality is that logic doesn't rule anything. People choose to embrace ignorance because it's easier to accept than the truth(majority of the world). Rational and logical people are a minority and have a shorter shelf life.
Why is it, that when someone has a completely isolated view on this forum they always fall back on some pseudo-intellectual bullsh*t about how other people don't understand them, or that they have some kind of superior ability to rationalise.

Japan doesn't need an international consensus to tell it what it needs to do or how it should feel or think ladies and gentleman !
Neither sir, does it need you. It's not your country, and you don't speak for it.
 
McTojo said:
Good morning my detractors,

I have no problem agreeing with what you wrote Lexico and Lastmagi and though you me use psycho-analytical innuendo's to allude to me I tell you from the start that I have always been at the top of my class in science and I'm not unstable emotionally nor mentally.

I think people in general, you included, choose to believe what you want to believe. And in a perfect world logic would rule but the reality is that logic doesn't rule anything. People choose to embrace ignorance because it's easier to accept than the truth(majority of the world). Rational and logical people are a minority and have a shorter shelf life.

You're skirting around the issue at hand here.

Japan doesn't need an international consensus to tell it what it needs to do or how it should feel or think ladies and gentleman !

Why? What makes Japan so special that it can exist in a vacuum?
 
Silverpoint

Silverpoint said:
No, just crass, insensitive and lacking in social skills.


Why is it, that when someone has a completely isolated view on this forum they always fall back on some pseudo-intellectual bullsh*t about how other people don't understand them, or that they have some kind of superior ability to rationalise.


Neither sir, does it need you. It's not your country, and you don't speak for it.

You are drawing false conclusions again. And if you are referring to me then just come out and say it, simple. Sorry, but if everyone agreed then there would be no discourse. And I never mentioned that no one understands me, maybe misunderstood a topic I wrote or took too far out of context to mean what they thought it meant, that's it.

Crass...no...insensitive...no...lacking social skills...no...no...no You've got the wrong person Silver. Who are you referring to ?
 
lastmagi said:
You're skirting around the issue at hand here.



Why? What makes Japan so special that it can exist in a vacuum?

Because Japan is a sovereign nation that is capable of making its own decision about the welfare of its own people and diplomatic relations just like any other nation with its own sovereignty, simple.

I don't skirt around issues Lastmagi.
 
lastmagi said:
I'll be the first to admit that after reading the discussion thus far I'm a bit lost, so I don't know how to respond as yet. The reason I'm lost is that I don't have a clear sense of what exactly you're saying because, in this thread, everytime someone responds to what you're saying, you reply that that's not what you're saying, that your thoughts are completely different and that your thoughts are clearly laid out.

Thus:







Yet you never clarify exactly, you just leave it for us to puzzle over. May I ask you go back to square one and explain what exactly you're trying to get at, if it's not about the values and not the mannerisms?

I was only telling you about an experience I had, that's it...
 
McTojo said:
Because Japan is a sovereign nation that is capable of making its own decision about the welfare of its own people and diplomatic relations just like any other nation with its own sovereignty, simple.

In what way is Japan's current situation in this regard so different from most other countries in the world ? At present, the only state that does not pay much regard to other's view and opinions and imposes its will and selfish interests onto others is the United States. Do you wish that Japan become more like the USA ?
 
McTojo said:
Because Japan is a sovereign nation that is capable of making its own decision about the welfare of its own people and diplomatic relations just like any other nation with its own sovereignty, simple.

Of course it can make its own decisions. But are they going to be right just because they're Japan? If yes, this is cultural relativism at its most extreme and dangerous. Japan just cannot ignore the fact that it is part of an international community. What exactly will Japan get out of isolating itself that it can't get by being an honest, contributing part of that community? I guarantee that it would get more respect and pride in the latter scenario.

By appealing for the vacuum around Japan, you are effectively putting it on a pedestal it will never be able to hold.

Let's put things in perspective. Here's an article that deals with not just China's response to the Yasukuni visits, but also some citizens' groups as well. Does this show that the leaders are doing a good job with their people?

China cancels meeting with Machimura
http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20051019a1.htm

The demonstrators put up banners and placards reading "Yasukuni visits defy 'no more war' commitment" and "You're going against peace and coexistence with Asia."

"Don't go to the shrine that praises war," the demonstrators yelled.

Keep in mind that these demonstrations were in Japan itself.
 
Maciamo said:
In what way is Japan's current situation in this regard so different from most other countries in the world ? At present, the only state that does not pay much regard to other's view and opinions and imposes its will and selfish interests onto others is the United States. Do you wish that Japan become more like the USA ?

Yes, I do !

Japan should pursue a more aggressive domestic and international agenda aimed at re-nationalizing Japan for the sake of the Japanese. But first things first, Japan should acquiesce her neighbors and accept the fact that Japan did some very horrible and nasty things to asia sixty years ago. Then Japan needs to clean house by re-writing her constitution first in order to reflect what the Japanese want including the reviewing and possible re-writing of article 9. Issues regarding seperation of church and state should be addressed and clearly stated and respected by all peoples including politicans. And by no means, should China have a say so in any of it !
 
McTojo said:
Yes, I do !

Japan should pursue a more aggressive domestic and international agenda aimed at re-nationalizing Japan for the sake of the Japanese.

So basically, you want Japan to copy the world's most imperialist and hated foreign policy. Do you seriously think that the mostly peace-loving modern Japanese will accept that ? Many Japanese hate as much the US aggressive foreign policy as anyone else. Bush has very few supporters in Japan, believe me.

Issues regarding seperation of church and state should be addressed and clearly stated and respected by all peoples including politicans.

I certainly agree with that. I wish the US could do the same and remove its national mottos "In God We Trust" or "God bless America", as I find it very offensive for atheists, agnostics or polytheists, and it is a clear breach of the separation of state and religion when it appears on official documents, coins, or is uttered by the president in public speeches. In some European countries (e.g. France or Belgium) politicians would risk their carreer by making any reference to god or the bible. So, as an American citizen, why don't you sort your country's issues first ?
 
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