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Japanese stroke order is illogical

FinancialWar

Sempai
19 May 2006
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As a native Chinese I find Japanese stroke simple illogical and sometimes different rule applies to different kanjis.

The basic rules for writing kanji are from top to bottom, left to right, horizontal first then vertical.

When you write 十、the order is 一、十
when you write 土、you simply add another horizontal stroke to 十
however when you write 田、the rules are abandoned, the Japanese came up with order. 田 is simply 冂 plus 土, however in Japanese you write 冂 , then | 、 finishes off with 2 一。 what??

When you write 右 and 左、it is simply ナplus 口 or 工 respectively.
the first part is the same for both kanji, it is ナ you'd think the stroke order for ナ should be the same right?

when you write 右: ノ ナ 右
when you write 左: 一 ナ 左

Why is it the stroke order is reversed for the same part?

I am sure there are other examples of random stroke orders, which I have not yet discovered however it make things very difficult for people who have already learned Chinese characters. Japanese need to change the way they teach kanji stroke order, it is just too random.
 
As a native Chinese I find Japanese stroke simple illogical and sometimes different rule applies to different kanjis.

The basic rules for writing kanji are from top to bottom, left to right, horizontal first then vertical.

When you write 十、the order is 一、十
when you write 土、you simply add another horizontal stroke to 十
however when you write 田、the rules are abandoned, the Japanese came up with order. 田 is simply 冂 plus 土, however in Japanese you write 冂 , then | 、 finishes off with 2 一。 what??

When you write 右 and 左、it is simply ナplus 口 or 工 respectively.
the first part is the same for both kanji, it is ナ you'd think the stroke order for ナ should be the same right?

when you write 右: ノ ナ 右
when you write 左: 一 ナ 左

Why is it the stroke order is reversed for the same part?

I am sure there are other examples of random stroke orders, which I have not yet discovered however it make things very difficult for people who have already learned Chinese characters. Japanese need to change the way they teach kanji stroke order, it is just too random.

Honestly, there was time when I could write over 400 kanji, and knew all about the order and stuff, but once I started using a computer in Japanese I lost nearly all my hand writing ability. So I really do not know about your complaint, but my question to you is.. in this day and age where everything is printed/typed/digital... even if the Japanese way is strange, does it matter that much anymore? How often are you hand writing things in Japanese to make it a bother for you?
 
Let us say they were talking about the character 有. The correct stroke order is 丿 first. The Japanese standard matches this, while the ROC, PRC, and Hong Kong standards write 一 first. I would imagine that they are debating over whether the "Chinese stroke order" or the "Japanese stroke order" is correct. You might even read something like "We're talking about Chinese characters, which the Chinese created, so of course they would be correct," not being aware of how diligently the Japanese studied Chinese calligraphy before World War II and how rapidly the caliber of writing in China declined after the fall of Qing. If one were to just go in and say "丿 first" one can imagine how quickly they would conclude that you're siding with the Japanese for some illogical reason.
From Newb Questions That Never Get Good Answers: Part 3 (I'm not sure if you can see that without logging in)
No governmental standard matches traditional stroke orders completely. The differences between the governmental standards and traditional stroke orders arise from a lack of adequate understanding of calligraphy on the part of those who standardize stroke orders, and accommodation for schoolchildren who may be overwhelmed if the rules about stroke orders are too detailed, or if there are too many exceptions.
Stroke order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess it depends on what you mean by "logical". Would it be logical to follow the traditional stroke orders? If you wanted to only learn one stroke order, the respective political entities could have turned to people who had studied calligraphy to standardize them, but that's not what happened. Or by "logical" do you mean simplified stroke orders with similar looking characters having the same orders? Of course, you could just go with the one that you know and not worry about it.

I've got to admit, though, I didn't know that was the Japanese stroke order for 田. That's not how I write it. I use the Chinese order (Taiwanese, at least. I'm not checking them all.). I don't know where I picked that up, but I'm not going to change it.
 
I lost nearly all my hand writing ability. So I really do not know about your complaint, but my question to you is.. in this day and age where everything is printed/typed/digital...

I am trying to obtain JLPT certificates, so I took some kanken tests to test my kanji level, I was surprised when I got some of the stroke order questions wrong.
 
I am trying to obtain JLPT certificates, so I took some kanken tests to test my kanji level, I was surprised when I got some of the stroke order questions wrong.

Well you are in luck then because the JLPT does not have a hand writing section. So no need to worry about it.
 
Japanese need to change the way they teach kanji stroke order, it is just too random.
None of your business, pal. You are just a product of anti-Japan education or a product of the parents that received that kinda education in China.

Why did you guys leave China anyway if you love it somuch?
 
None of your business, pal. You are just a product of anti-Japan education or a product of the parents that received that kinda education in China.

Why did you guys leave China anyway if you love it somuch?
What does that have to do with stroke order? What's your problem with people having interest in Japan?
 
None of your business, pal.

An interesting response. Japan does not mind its own business in integrating a foreign writing system. But one Chinese man's frustration how they twisted his people's system and BLAM, "mind your own business". Simply incredible. And very two-faced.

You know, this is a forum, and we are entitled to our opinions. And you are entitled to yours, just have the decency to stay on topic and not muck up other people's threads with your off topic opinions.


You are just a product of anti-Japan education or a product of the parents that received that kinda education in China.

And I am completely sure that YOU sir, have received no anti-China indoctrination in your life. Not in school and not via the news media. Right.

I am not anti either country, and I too have some criticisms of Japanese use of foreign things, particularly when they take it and bastardize it, and man, Japan does that A LOT! (and I say that mindful of the fact it happens in the west too, such as with the word futon (Grrrr)).

One thing that bothers me is that it seems to me that stroke order was merely created as hints and a way to help teach people a way to write smoothly and neatly. As far as I know, it was the Japanese who took the helpful tips and turned them into iron law, a very typical and annoying tendency of the Japanese on top of the bastardization of so much that is foreign.
 
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seems to be a retaliation to my response in this thread.
I got a similarly bitchy/whiny/uncalled for post in my diary thread. All you can assume is that Masaegu is not a happy person and takes comments from non-Japanese regarding the country as a personal thing, regardless of how harmless and inoffensive they might be. Fortunately, Japanese people on the whole are not like that.

Probably best to ignore and pity him rather than to dignify him (or her) with any genuine discussion.

Being a dick on the Internet is not merely the domain of the native English, though they may have perfected it.
 
None of your business, pal. You are just a product of anti-Japan education or a product of the parents that received that kinda education in China.

Why did you guys leave China anyway if you love it somuch?
Actually, he has a point and it has nothing to do with anti-Japanese sentiments. Maybe you should take a look in the mirror, b/c you seem pretty anti-Chinese, a case of the pot calling the kettle black me thinks.

Being a dick on the Internet is not merely the domain of the native English, though they may have perfected it.
Or just being a dick, period.
 
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