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Japanese Flags To Translate

Boongie

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Hello:
My first time posting on this forum. Please see attached for two Japanese flags, supposedly of World War II vintage. Can I get any feedback on translations of the markings? Also, do these two appear to be original and not fakes?
Thank you!
Japanese Silk Flag.jpg
Japanese Flag.jpg
 

Toritoribe

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The first flag is upside down. The name of the recipient is 保坂常久 Hosaka Tsunehisa. I can't judge the authenticity.

The second one is reversed. This is most likely a fake. The words such like ビルマ戦線 "Burma Campaign" or ラングーン上陸 "Landing on Rangoon" are never written on a flag.
 

Boongie

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The first flag is upside down. The name of the recipient is 保坂常久 Hosaka Tsunehisa. I can't judge the authenticity.

The second one is reversed. This is most likely a fake. The words such like ビルマ戦線 "Burma Campaign" or ラングーン上陸 "Landing on Rangoon" are never written on a flag.
Thank you for your assistance. When you say that the second flag is reversed, do you mean that the picture is showing the "back" of the flag?
 

Boongie

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Thank you. I found another flag. What appears to be much writing on it. Please see attached for front and back. Any thoughts as to the authenticity of this flag?

Condition looks almost too good but I am not an expert.
Flag Front.jpg
Flag Back.jpg
 

Toritoribe

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Just in my personal impression, it's questionable. There seems to be too many slogans there.
 

jeeplover

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i must say i think this is wrong. in the book (imperial japanese good luck flags and one thousand stitch belts BY michael a. bortner) page 102. the second statement
The first flag is upside down. The name of the recipient is 保坂常久 Hosaka Tsunehisa. I can't judge the authenticity.

The second one is reversed. This is most likely a fake. The words such like ビルマ戦線 "Burma Campaign" or ラングーン上陸 "Landing on Rangoon" are never written on a flag.

and one thousand stitch belts BY michael a. bortner) page 102.
 

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Toritoribe

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The flag in the book was presented to a soldier in commemoration of the victory, i.e., it's not yosegaki hinomaru like the ones posted here.
 

jeeplover

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then you should explain things like this and not say it don't happen no you said never.
 

jeeplover

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too many slogans? no where in the book does it talk about that. i must say i know i am a new member. i have been collecting for years i think in person i can spot a fake online it is harder you consider things like light shadow . you are way more than qualified to read the flags no one is arguing that point but i do not feel you are qualified to authenticate online. if there is a copy of this book in japanese get it read it then authenticate .
 

mdchachi

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then you should explain things like this and not say it don't happen no you said never.

i do not feel you are qualified to authenticate online.

You might re-read what you said and consider the tone. First of all, I don't think Toritoribe has much of an interest in this memorabilia. So saying that he should get the book and read it and become more expert in order to give free advice to buyers/sellers like you sounds impudent. And he is not "authenticating" online. He's giving his opinion for free. So he said "never." So what? Obviously it means "never in his experience" or "never as far as he knows."
You're lucky he's giving his actual honest and quite experienced opinion and not telling people who come here what a rare find they have and watch them spend hundreds of dollars so he can laugh about it later.
 

jeeplover

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I stand by what I said I feel if you are going to give opinions on authenticity you should know all there is to know other than that it is just a guess? I do appreciate the help if I did not I would not donate. you can not expect me to say nothing if I feel something is wrong. I may not be able to read these flags but I myself have studied them for years think I am ok identifying fake from real.
 

mdchachi

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I stand by what I said I feel if you are going to give opinions on authenticity you should know all there is to know other than that it is just a guess? I do appreciate the help if I did not I would not donate. you can not expect me to say nothing if I feel something is wrong. I may not be able to read these flags but I myself have studied them for years think I am ok identifying fake from real.
And what is every other person in every forum you frequent on this subject doing but giving opinions regarding authenticity? Do you berate them too? Did you go back and tell the people who misrecognized sosho that they don't know what they are talking about? And tell them to read books about Japanese calligraphy so they can become experts on the topic?

And here is what he actually said. He is not even making strong pronouncements regarding authenticity in the first place!
I can't judge the authenticity.

This is most likely a fake.

Just in my personal impression, it's questionable.
 

jeeplover

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if you read all of the post at least over half Toritoribe says this about all of the flags in those post ( Just in my personal impression, it's questionable) ( This is most likely a fake.) Some I see, I know are real and he has just told someone his typical statement. I do not usually post anywhere asking for authenticy I know that before I buy that way the only opinion is mine. If it is fake only one person to blame me. I guess the big question here is what is wrong with telling someone that they should read up on the subject? Do you have a issue with someone furthering there knowledge? or are you so arrogant you think you have nothing to learn? I am always learning I am not to proud to buy a book. I live in America and I have books on American gear. I do not think I am a expert in American items let alone the the english language just because I live here. In your statement earlier you said,
( should get the book and read it and become more expert in order to give free advice to buyers/sellers like you sounds impudent. And he is not "authenticating" online. He's giving his opinion for free. So he said "never." So what? Obviously it means "never in his experience" or "never as far as he knows.")
the final part of this statement ("never in his experience" or "never as far as he knows.) well if he read the book he would know .
 

jeeplover

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you say that because i disagree? am i not entitled to my opinion also? gang up on the new guy he might run away.
 

mdchachi

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You're welcome to stay but what do you expect when you come into somebody's home and berate them when they don't meet your expectations? It would be much more helpful for you to participate constructively and give evidence why you think certain flags are authentic then to complain about somebody else's supposed lack knowledge about a subject they don't even claim to be an expert on.
 

jeeplover

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I really think we have a failure to communicate. I think there's some laguage barrier here. What I am trying to say is that it's harmful for someone that ISN'T a certified authenicater to express their opinion about something being "fake" because it spreads misinformation as they are not certified to say so. Unless someone asks for your specfic opinion on the item I don't think you should give it as one could possibily damage the history, vaule or meaning of the item itself. If you'd like to share an opinion at least expand on what you say so that person could gain more knowledge, BUT if the owner already has information and has supplied it to you then YOU should be the one researching to gain more knowledge. It works both ways. Only a certified authenticator has more knowledge and experitse than just someone that can read the same language as there are other factors in authentication.
 

Toritoribe

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I may not be able to read these flags but I myself have studied them for years think I am ok identifying fake from real.
Just out of curiosity, how do you differentiate authentic flags and old fake ones that were made as a souvenir for US soldiers in that time without knowing what's written on a flag? You can find examples that contain fictional organization or location names that didn't exist in that era or even the date after the war which were an obvious evidence to show clearly the flag was a fake even just in this forum. Is there a way to identify that those are fake flags without reading Japanese words/phrases, which were written perfectly by Japanese people in that time? It seems to me that there indeed must be another "language barrier" where language skills are critically important to check the authenticity of flags.
 

jeeplover

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I can not read german either so does this mean I can not identify the authenticity of German stuff?
 

mdchachi

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I can not read german either so does this mean I can not identify the authenticity of German stuff?
It means you have one less tool at your disposal.

Can you answer the question? How do you distinguish authentic items from contemporaneously manufactured items? As you know there was a whole cottage industry after the war making these things.
 

jeeplover

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The second one is reversed. This is most likely a fake. The words such like ビルマ戦線 "Burma Campaign" or ラングーン上陸 "Landing on Rangoon" are never written on a flag.

I think the above quote would make sense on a flag. these are missions in china. I would be more worried about Iwo Jima Tarawa or Sipan written on a flag because we all know there were very few who survived these battles to fight on other islands. in the book I mention there is a whole chapter ( chapter 9) (good luck flags battle records maps unit flags) it is a very interesting chapter and it states these flags are rare.
 

nice gaijin

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@jeeplover, So many treasure hunters come here to ask for opinions on their memorabilia or war trophies, many with a clear intention of trading in these goods and profiting off them. Personally, I don't pay much attention to these threads, as I feel like the only moral thing to do is to at least try to return them to the family of the fallen soldier, through services like the Obon Society.

We have precious few native speakers on the board, and none are more helpful in threads like this than Toritoribe, who provides his translations and opinions for free. I haven't seen him claim expertise beyond that. He often disclaims his statements as his own opinion to avoid sounding like he's pretending to speak authoritatively, and there are apparently a LOT of fakes out there. It should come as no surprise that so many potential fakes show up here, because they are trying to avoid paying an expert for their opinion. We're just a random assortment of internet folks; our opinions are worth their weight in salt.

The picture of the book you shared is dark and blurry and hard to read (please type out the relevant text in the future to make it more accessible). It looks like the book says the example lists some of the engagements the soldier participated in, but the flag in the book doesn't use vague terms like 戦線 (front line) and 上陸 (landfall). He specifically said the phrases in question wouldn't be found on a flag, your example doesn't disprove his assertion. Perhaps you could find such a yosegaki flag with those exact phrases that has been authenticated by an expert, which would be much stronger evidence. You said yourself that such a flag would be rare (though I think you were referring to the victory flag in the book, and not a yosegaki hinomaru), which would increase its apparent value to a potential buyer; a convincing fake can make real money.

You're welcome to disagree and present your evidence for why you feel it is so, but for the sake of polite discourse, please consider your tone and try to be generous with your criticism by asking clarifying questions before you try to take someone down a peg. He is, after all, communicating in your language.
 

jeeplover

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I will be more understanding but it is hard when you are told the thing you have learned is wrong. experienced collectors, they always say the first $1000 should be spent on reference material or the first 104695-jpy on reference material. i will take more pictures of the flags in the book there are several.
 
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