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japanese and koreans?

Bounty Hunter

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He is a serious question for you people to answer.

Why is it that korean people don't like japanese people and the other way around?
I should think their will be a link with the the 2nd world war.
 

Onigiri Chan

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That's somewhat shocking.
I read a really long book on WWII last week.
It was moi interesting 🎈
 

canadian_kor

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From what I have heard and witnessed from others, a lot of Koreans hate the Japanese because of what happened in the past (colonization, comfort women, etc.); while a lot of the Japanese tend to look down on Koreans because...umm...they are not Japanese. (Though the Japanese people I've encountered never treated me with disrespect or animosity.)
 

takeshi

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Bounty Hunter said:
He is a serious question for you people to answer.

Why is it that korean people don't like japanese people and the other way around?
I should think their will be a link with the the 2nd world war.
i think this is a bad post,
just saying that koreans hate japanese when you live in britain and know nothing of this subject.

you cant just say something like that, my korean friend is dating a japanese girl and they're engage, just because they were born where they were doesn't mean they hate each other,

because of world war 2 doesn't mean i hate germans does it.
 

mithridates

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A better place to look on might be the Korean bulletin board on Dave's Eslcafe.
www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea
Koreans know quite a bit more about Japan than the other way around, but that doesn't necessarily make it a better thing; just like how Canadians know more about the US than vice versa though the impression generally comes off as being negative.
You could sum it up in a few ways:
-Korea brought kanji to Japan way back when and regard their history as being older and superior
-Korea was annexed by Japan for 40 years
-Japan apologized for actions during WWII but not to the extent that Germany did regarding the Holocaust; many Koreans still look for a full-out, 'I accept responsibility for everything' kind of apology, but that's never going to happen. Japanese often point out that everybody and their dog had a colony back then and having them was a ticket to the big leagues and being taken seriously by the international community
-The Japanese economy started taking off right around when the Korean war broke out. Koreans can sometimes be jealous of this 'head start' the Japanese economy had.
 

Sy-l

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This question just made me think.. why do most ppl in the UK despise the french?
 

bossel

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Sy-l said:
This question just made me think.. why do most ppl in the UK despise the french?
They don't, as it seems. A poll from the beginning of the year had the following results (quoted article originally from NYT):
"More telling, perhaps, were the results of a BVA-ICM poll carried out for the two newspapers. Asked what they most admired, 80 percent of Britons in the poll chose French art and culture, while 69 percent of the French cited English music, presumably pop. Predictably, 64 percent of Britons also liked French cuisine, while only 6 percent of the French approved of English food. And surprisingly, 51 percent of Britons had a good image of Mr. Chirac, while Mr. Blair was liked by 49 percent of the French.

The poll also addresses personal attitudes. Asked to pick some typical characteristics, 76 percent of the French considered Britons "faithful to their principles," while 69 percent of Britons thought the French "imaginative." On other traits, like "seductive," "arrogant" and "cowardly," Britons gave higher scores to the French than the French did to Britons.
[...]
While 85 percent of the French and 73 percent of Britons trust the Spaniards and 84 percent of the French and 69 percent of Britons trust the Germans, only 51 percent of Britons trust the French and 55 percent of the French trust the British. Another poll published last week by Pティlerin magazine said the French feel closest to Germany, with Britain ranking fifth on the list.

And yet the French have always loved Queen Elizabeth and the British royal family. Could it be because they have German blood?"
 

celtician

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The Japanese shouldn't despise the Koreans simmply because their own emperor is in fact a Korean.
 

Eisuke

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celtician said:
The Japanese shouldn't despise the Koreans simmply because their own emperor is in fact a Korean.

The Japanese Emperor is Japanese. He had said that there is some korean blood in him from the mother of Japanese Emperor Kammu who was a Baekje descendant but that is only a small percentage.

Here is a article:

Akihito surprised everyone in South Korea by stating that he felt a certain kinship with Korea and Koreans because one of his ancestors, the mother of the Emperor Kammu, was a Baekje descendant who had lived in Japan for over two generation after Baekje ceased to exist. Most Koreans did not know this fact and this fact was suppressed in Korea because it can give a legitimate reason for the annexation of Korea. It was widely known and spread during the annexation period as a way to show a legitimacy to the Japan's claim of Korean peninsula as its domain.

http://copernicus.subdomain.de/Emperor_of_Japan
 

lexico

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Eisuke said:
Most Koreans did not know this fact and this fact was suppressed in Korea because it can give a legitimate reason for the annexation of Korea.
No, Eisuke, there are so many things that you don't know. Please use the search function before blindly posting something you might regret later on. See this post by Thomas;

ARTICLE: South Koreans welcome Japanese emperor's remark on his roots

One of his eighth-century ancestors was born to a descendant of immigrants from the Korean Peninsula. In doing so, he said he felt a close "kinship" with Korea.

His remark received a warm welcome in Seoul, marking as it did the first time a member of the Imperial family publicly noted the family's blood ties with Korea. In his first public address this year, South Korean President Kim Dae Jung accordingly praised the Emperor for his "correct understanding of history."
...
"I believe it was truly fortunate that such culture and technology was brought to Japan through the friendly attitudes of the Korean people," he was quoted as saying.
See, Korean response is overwhelmingly positive ? Nobody held a grudge for your emperor's saying that. (Sure there are unsolved problems from the past, but that's a totally separate thing.) Blood ties are blood ties, nothing more or less.

In sharp contrast to the flurry of media activity these comments provoked in South Korea, however, most of the Japanese media either ignored or played down the remarks.

All of the major newspapers carried their usual stories on the birthday news conference in their morning editions Dec. 23.

Of the five national papers, however, the Mainichi Shimbun, the Yomiuri Shimbun and the Nihon Keizai Shimbun ignored the Emperor's Korea reference. Only the Asahi Shimbun ran a story highlighting its significance.

The Emperor's remarks certainly surprised Shuichi Kanda, a media studies lecturer at Obirin University in Tokyo. Kanda said it was hard to believe the Imperial Household Agency would make public a remark of this nature.
...
"The media's hesitancy to report the Emperor's remark this time may reflect their confusion over it," he said. "In other words, the remark was very unusual, something that challenges the common view shared by the media and public."

Yuji Otabe, an assistant professor of modern Japanese history at Shizuoka Seika College, has written several books on the Imperial system and the Imperial family. He believes the remark challenged Japan's prevailing image of itself as an ethnically homogeneous nation.

"The remark took the Japanese public by surprise, which proved how this view still prevails," he said.
See the Japanese confusion over it ? The suppression happened in Japan, not in Korea. Who tells you these lies, Eisuke ? :?

I checked your link and there's nothing negative about the announcement or suppression. But it looks more like you are the one who's offended by your Emperor saying such a thing. Please don't make news out of thin air. It's called black propaganda, or simply lying.
 
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Eisuke

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I don't mind that he said that. I think it is good he said that because it is only fair. You can say like blood ties are blood ties, but the korean blood in him is such a small percentage that it doesn't matter much.
 

Mycernius

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Sy-l said:
This question just made me think.. why do most ppl in the UK despise the french?
It's not really hate, it's just that our history is closly linked to France. We have about a 1000 years of fighting with the French and it is almost a love hate relationship. We have been claiming ownership of the French Throne since god knows when (and visa versa) and the Royal family were still styling themselves as King/Queen of France until Queen Victoria dropped it. During the Crimean war the French were our allies, but that didn't stop some generals from calling the Russians the French by mistake.

Omgiri Chan said:
Canadians don't seem to like 'em either? =p
Who, the French or the English? :)
 

lexico

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Hey, Eisuke !

Eisuke said:
I don't mind that he said that. I think it is good he said that because it is only fair. You can say like blood ties are blood ties, but the korean blood in him is such a small percentage that it doesn't matter much.
Well I'm glad you can feel that way, Eisuke. Might I suggest that you and I, too, are most probably blood-related going back two hundred generations, which is roughly 4,000 to 6,000 years BP, and there is the strong chance that our ancestors intermarried a lot more recently. I personally have nothing to gain or lose, but only the warm feeling of relatedness with another being--distant cousin, so to speak--living somewhere far off for some historical drifting. People move around from here to there, there to here, and elsewhere. We're all related to be totally honest, right, cousin ? 🎈 🌹
 

lexico

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Generic Expression of Abuse

Mycernius said:
During the Crimean war the French were our allies, but that didn't stop some generals from calling the Russians the French by mistake.
That is so funny, Mycernius ! It can only mean by that time the proper noun "The French !" had almost turned into a generic expletive for any enemy. Hahahaha...... aaaaah ! :D
 

A5573A

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lexico said:
Well I'm glad you can feel that way, Eisuke. Might I suggest that you and I, too, are most probably blood-related going back two hundred generations, which is roughly 4,000 to 6,000 years BP, and there is the strong chance that our ancestors intermarried a lot more recently. I personally have nothing to gain or lose, but only the warm feeling of relatedness with another being--distant cousin, so to speak--living somewhere far off for some historical drifting. People move around from here to there, there to here, and elsewhere. We're all related to be totally honest, right, cousin ? 🎈 🌹

wow, thats really impressive. I wish everyone could think in the way you think. 👍
 

celtician

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What IS blood lines anyway???

Eisuke said:
I don't mind that he said that. I think it is good he said that because it is only fair. You can say like blood ties are blood ties, but the korean blood in him is such a small percentage that it doesn't matter much.
Yes the emperor is living in Japan but what are u saying he is also Mongolian, Chinese & Ainu?? percentage%%%%??

Do tell
 

梁铠赞

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The Yayoi and Yamato Mass Immigration from Korea
Around 400 BC, a sudden change occurred in the Japanese culture. The Neolithic Jomon culture was overwhelmed by Iron Age culture from Korea. Iron tools and irrigated rice fields with canals, dams, banks, paddies, and rice residues have been uncovered by archeologists. This Iron Age culture of Japan is called the Yayoi, named after a district of Tokyo where in 1884 pottery similar to contemporary South Korean pottery was unearthed. "Many other elements of the new Yayoi culture were unmistakably Korean and previously foreign to Japan, including bronze objects, weaving, glass beads, and styles of tools and houses." (Diamond 1998)

Japan's population increased by an astonishing 7,000% during the Yayoi period. It is estimated that the Jomon people numbered less than 75,000 in about 400 BC. Korean farmers found the Japanese islands with warmer climates and abundant water a land of golden opportunity, and millions of them crossed the Tzushima Strait to Kyushu, and from there, to the other islands of Japan. The Koreans brought Korean farming practices, culture, language, and genes. The Koreans overwhelmed the stone age Jomon people.

Another major and sudden change occurred during 300-700 AD - the Yamato Period. Archeological excavations dug up large tombs with lavish burial goods and frescos, which are identical to those found in Koguryo tombs. During this period, many nobles from Koguryo, Gaya and Baikje fled to Japan when their kingdoms collapsed. Some Korean historians believe that some of the Korean kingdoms ruled over Japan during the Yamato period. Some historians believe that Puyo warriors from Korea invaded Japan and established the Yamato period of domination of Japan by Korea.

from :http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2410.html

maybe...not even the emperor has Korean blood...maybe all of the Japanese is indeed Korean...now you(Japanese) know who is your anchestor right??
 

Eisuke

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窶氾?铠赞 said:
now you(Japanese) know who is your anchestor right??

That is a other topic. It was already discussed in this thread
https://jref.com/showthread.php?t=742&page=1&pp=25.

Here is information about that:

Where the Japanese race comes from:
1,000,000-20,000 years ago, the land of Japan was totally connected with the Great Eurasia Continent by land, and some groups of Paleolithic Mongoloids came to Japan on foot from the Ural/Altaic area of the continent.
The original Japanese race must have been formed by mingling one another among the above said groups of the Paleolithic Mongoloids.
Later, other groups of Neolithic Mongoloids, came into Japan from China, Korea and some other parts in the Pacific, South and Southeast Asia, and further mixture among the Mongoloids went on eventually to form the modern Japanese race.

http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/aoh/JAP.HTML
 

lexico

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Nice job, 窶氾?铠赞 !

窶氾?铠赞 said:
The Yayoi and Yamato Mass Immigration from Korea
Around 400 BC, a sudden change occurred in the Japanese culture. The Neolithic Jomon culture was overwhelmed by Iron Age culture from Korea. Iron tools and irrigated rice fields with canals, dams, banks, paddies, and rice residues have been uncovered by archeologists. This Iron Age culture of Japan is called the Yayoi, named after a district of Tokyo where in 1884 pottery similar to contemporary South Korean pottery was unearthed. "Many other elements of the new Yayoi culture were unmistakably Korean and previously foreign to Japan, including bronze objects, weaving, glass beads, and styles of tools and houses." (Diamond 1998)

Japan's population increased by an astonishing 7,000% during the Yayoi period. It is estimated that the Jomon people numbered less than 75,000 in about 400 BC. Korean farmers found the Japanese islands with warmer climates and abundant water a land of golden opportunity, and millions of them crossed the Tzushima Strait to Kyushu, and from there, to the other islands of Japan. The Koreans brought Korean farming practices, culture, language, and genes. The Koreans overwhelmed the stone age Jomon people.

Another major and sudden change occurred during 300-700 AD - the Yamato Period. Archeological excavations dug up large tombs with lavish burial goods and frescos, which are identical to those found in Koguryo tombs. During this period, many nobles from Koguryo, Gaya and Baikje fled to Japan when their kingdoms collapsed.
What you summarized above appears to be closer to the historical truth than not, supported by soild archeological studies, and one which can only gain more precision with futher research. However, from the viewpoint of logical precision, the following are perhaps awaiting a more careful examination regarding the exact nature of 'Koreaness,' 'political control,' ' migration,' and 'invasion.'
Some Korean historians believe that some of the Korean kingdoms ruled over Japan during the Yamato period. Some historians believe that Puyo warriors from Korea invaded Japan and established the Yamato period of domination of Japan by Korea.
Some questions that need to be answered would probably include what kind of Korean influx into the Japanese archipelago the Korean expatriates were;

1) 1st wave of immigrants: were they paeo-asians, neo-asians, or a newly forged asian nationality ?

2) 2nd wave of immigrants: these must have been much closer to modern Koreans, but even that is only in hind sight.

The question is how can they be defined as 'Korean' if their time frame came before the unilinear beginning of modern Koreans around 668 of Shilla or 935 of Koryo ? In fact this is a theoretical question that followers of nationalistic historians of Japan/Korea need not be concerned with at all because the concept trascends their scope of historical perception. No offense meant, but I sincerely hope to prevent any unnecessary waste of time, effort, and space.

Now the real question is how can we picture these two macrotemporal waves of 'Korean' immigrants ? Were the immigrations/invasions sporadic or organized ? In other words, were the two waves more like the migrations/invasions of the Agles, the Saxons, and the Jutes to the British Isles, (and, later, those of the Danes, the Swedes, and the Norweigians) or the bellicose invasion of the Norman French in 1066 lead by William the Conquoror ?

Without going into a detailed analysis, but only relying on a rough and superficial comparison with British historiography, there is reason to believe that the first was sporadic, and that the second was also sporadic. These are to be understood by comparing the time of the first historical compilations in each of the four kingdoms of Kokuryo, Baikje, Shilla, and Wa-Japan. (Of course there were many more states that failed to leave an extant history/historiography to this day, so this is a simplistic formulation at best.)

1) 1st official reference to Kokuryo ツ坂?壺?ケテ・窶氾ュ historical recording; "at the beginning of the State" is understood as some time in the reign years of the 6th king Kukjo wang ナ。ツ?窶歪窶ーツ、 (53-146 CE) of Kokuryo ツ坂?壺?ケテ・窶氾ュ. Some time during his reign was started the continuous recording of the annals. The year is assumed 146 CE at the latest, but not earlier than 53.

2) 1st official reference to Baikje 窶「Sテ?Z historical recording; in the reign years of Kunchogo wang 窶ケテ淞湘打津??ーツ、 (346-375 CE) of Baikje 窶「Sテ?Z Master Kohung ツ坂?壺?ケツサ writes Documents and the Annals (Soki) ツ鞘?倪?ケI

3) 1st official reference to Shilla ツ新窶披?ヲ historical recording; in the 6th year of Jinhung wang テ。テ≫?ケツサ窶ーツ、 (540-576) i.e. 545, Kochilbu 窶ケツ?#26578;窶「v writes National History (Kuksa) ナ。ツ?ナスj.

4) 1st & 2nd historical recording of Japan 窶愿コ窶怒: Koshiki ナ津ηス窶凪?ケL 712 and Documents and Annals of Nippon (Nihonshogi) 窶愿コ窶怒ツ鞘?倪?ケI 720.

It can be understood that sporadic immigration/invasion of the Japanese Archipelago have prevented a stabilized (closed) society in the Kingdom of Wa, continuing until the end of the war between the 3 Korean Kingdoms of Korea between 660 and 670. In the year 670 the Wa ヒ彖 reinforcement to support the recovery of the Kingdom of Baikje 窶「Sテ?Z failed in the renouned Battle of River Baekchon 窶昶?吮?伉コツ江. This was also the year that King Tenchi 窶弖窶冫 (9th yr of reign) changed the Kingdom's title from Wa ヒ彖 to Nippon 窶愿コ窶怒.

This suggests that somehow a change in the Wa polity or Wa society was expressed in the revised nationalistic self-identification as the land of the rising sun Nippon 窶愿コ窶怒 instead of the traditional Wa ヒ彖 'pictograph of a woman holding an ear of grain, by extension meek, gentle, flexible, weak' as the New Dynastic History of Tang Empire ツ新窶懌?堋鞘? states,

窶愿コ窶怒ナ津ν彖窶忝窶禿ァ...(omit)...窶弖窶冫ナス竄ャナスq窶弖窶「ツ絶?板ァナスqテコテ岩?愿≫?板ァ 邃「テキ窶ケナ毒陳ウ窶扼ナ陳ュナスg窶ーテェ窶「ツスツ坂?壺?氾ュ ナ津」テ「cツ習窶ーテ??ーツケナ督ヲヒ彖窶督シ更テ・j窶愿コ窶怒 ナスgナステ椎スツゥナ陳セナ。ツ?窶ケテ溪?愿コツ焦?ツ出ヒ?暗?ツィ窶督シ.

In literal translation, this reads "Nippon is the Ancient (kingdom) of Wano......(king) Tenchi died, and the son Tenmu ascended to the throne; (he also died, and) the son Chitou ascended to the throne. In the first reign year of 邃「テキ窶ケナ (670) they sent an emissary to congratulate the leveling of Kokuryo. Later they learned the Chinese language and, abhoring the name Wa ヒ彖, changed it to Nippon. In the emissary's own words, 'Our state is close to the place where the sun rises, so we took it as our state designation.'"

note: My reasoning of 'unrelenting, sporadic migration/invasion resulting in social turmoil and the loss of historical records/writing' is not my own idea but that of Gary Ledyard in his article entitled (Sorry I forgot; I'll try to find it and suppy it if I can.) He analyzes the Germanic invasion of Britannia and blames that for the loss of hostorical memory during that period. He then applies the Brithish model to the Korean peninsula in the Sanguo Wei-Jin Nanbeichao period ナスOナ。ツ?テゥツーツ敕ァ窶愿ャ窶徒窶卍ゥナスナセ窶佚」. Here I applied basically the same idea to Japan during the same period but extending it into Sui-Tang period テァツャ窶懌? down to the inauguration of Nippon 窶愿コ窶怒 in 712-720.
Although this site has useful and accurate information, to my regret it also has inaccurate information colored by Korean nationalism. I am glad you were able to excercise prudence and select those pieces of information that seems indeed trustworthy. ;-)
maybe...not even the emperor has Korean blood...maybe all of the Japanese is indeed Korean...now you(Japanese) know who is your anchestor right??
Your statement is probably true to a degree; yet we might want to be careful when we say this. Interesingly this is in parallel to Charles Darwin being accused of claiming that 'humans are descended from monkeys'; although Darwin never said that. Still that's what many people thought, and some people still do.

Not because you are worng or anything; it's just that certain Japanese will take it as an insult due to their condescension upon Koreans. So how about saying Koreans and the Japanese have strong blood ties or at least a not insignificant amount of shared ancestry ?

One reason I can point out as responsible for the anti-Korean feelings (from anti-Shilla in origin) is history. This goes back far into the 6th-7th century when the whole Korean peninsula, Manchuria, and even Japan were swept away in war between the Sui/Tang-Shilla alliance and the non-allied Gaya, Baekje, and Kokuryo.

When Shilla et al. destoyed the capitals and royal houses of Gaya, Baekje and Kokuryo, many fled to the kingodm of Wa ヒ彖, what is now Japan, and certainly the anti-Shilla emotions must have run high among at least a significant portion of Wa society as it accepted the refugees. The current emperor's Baekje lineage might also have certain bearings on the politico-military alliance between Baekje and Wa for example.

Thanks for all the hard research, 窶氾?铠赞 ! 🙂
 
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lexico

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Lumpers, Altaicists, and Leixcostaticians say we're cousins ! :p

Eisuke said:
That is a other topic. It was already discussed in this thread
https://jref.com/showthread.php?t=742&page=1&pp=25.

Here is information about that:

Where the Japanese race comes from:
1,000,000-20,000 years ago, the land of Japan was totally connected with the Great Eurasia Continent by land, and some groups of Paleolithic Mongoloids came to Japan on foot from the Ural/Altaic area of the continent.
The original Japanese race must have been formed by mingling one another among the above said groups of the Paleolithic Mongoloids.
Later, other groups of Neolithic Mongoloids, came into Japan from China, Korea and some other parts in the Pacific, South and Southeast Asia, and further mixture among the Mongoloids went on eventually to form the modern Japanese race.

http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/aoh/JAP.HTML
This is interesting material, Eisuke. But it also has some major flaws in that

1) the hypothesis that the ancestral Japanese people originated from the "Ural/Altaic area of Eurasia" is primarily based upon the unproven assumption that the Japanese language is genetically more closely related to the Altaic langugage familiy than any other language/language family. When such an assumption is on shaky grounds, I seriously wonder how one could make such a bold claim; not even providing a qualification for his particular reasoning can only become more problematic.

2) It's reference to the affinity of the Altaic language group with the Uralic group is again inaccurate. Hiroshi Ao, the site's author, is quoting the now-disproved Ural-Altaic theory which has gone out of circulation in the 1960's-1970's.

Lumping typology
It is now considered safer to assume that Japanese, as a language isolate, broadly belongs to a super language family hypothetically called North Asiatic with Altaic family proper and Korean-Japanese which again icludes Korean, Ainu, and Japanese-Ryukyuan (John C. Street 1962, Review of Vergleichende Grammatik der altaischen Sprachen, by Nicholas Poppe, Language 38: 92-98).

Altaic purists
Andrew Roy Miller proposed in 1971 that Korean-Japanese group be included under Tungus-Korean-Japanese subgroup, again under Eastern Altaic subfamily (Miller 1971, Japanese and Other Altaic Languages, Chicago).

Back to Street ?
James Patrie proposed in 1982 to return to John Street's model (Patrie 1982, The Genetic Relatioship of the Ainu Langauge. Honolulu).

Lexicostatisticians
Apart from typological inferences, S. Hattori, on the basis of lexicostatistical studies suggested that if Japanese, Korean, the Altaic family, and Ainu are indeed descended from a common parent language, then the time distance of splitting between those listed would have to be

(((Japanese, Korean), the Altaic family), Ainu)​

with the left most Japanese and the right most Ainu splitting around 10,000 years BP (Hattori 1959, Nihongo no keitoo. Tokyo. Iwanami).

So as you can see any historical analysis dealing with Japanese & Korean invariably places Japanese & Korean as the two closest languages.
The fact that Hiroshi Ao has failed to revise his characterization of Japanese to include such results as late as March 2003 makes me wonder whether he has been keeping up with recent studies in linguistics, history, anthropology, or archeology.

3) Although he may have hoped to avoid either view points of nationalists of Japan or Korea, in fact he is promoting the idea of distancing Japan from Korea as much as linguistic typology would allow, but even that has fallen apart as you can see.

What is being suggested is still a possibilty, however remote, but certainly not the way you or Mr. Hiroshi Ao understands it. ;-)
 
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