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Issue understanding the の particle's usage in a book title

zxuiji

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I'm starting off trying to read the japanese version of alice in wonderland and am having some trouble with の particle, here's what I got (in same order as book displays):
アリス=Arisu=Alice
の='s
冒険=bouken=Adventure
不思議の国=fushiginokuni=wonderland?
の=in?
My problem is that I'm not sure if I'm supposed to treat fushiginokuni as one word and if not then am I getting the meaning behind each of the last 2 のs correct since the reference I'm using doesn't mention this type of の ending sentence usage
 

Mike Cash

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You're going to need to spend some time learning the language first before you can hope to read a book written in it; that's the problem you're having.
 

zxuiji

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You're going to need to spend some time learning the language first before you can hope to read a book written in it; that's the problem you're having.
That's why I bought the book, so I could learn the language via reading it, my plan is to disect each sentence one at a time learning to understand what each sound/kanji/kana represents and try to remember them the next day by reading from the start again. After finally getting through the book and managing at a quick pace to not only read but also understand it I will move onto online novels which cover a wide variety of kanji, once I can read them a the same pace without issue I will move onto reading a japanese newspaper online each day so as to cover whatever is left and since I will be reading aloud at home I can get the hang of speaking it simultanously. I'm not expecting this happen fast so I figured that since reading forces my mind to try and recall both the sounds and meanings of the characters it would help me more effectively even if I get off to a slow start. I'm not asking you to explain each and every character because I already have apps on my phone that can help me with the bulk of the work, it's just the odd instances where they simply don't suffice.

Oh by the way what's that agree thing showing on your post, I'm new to the forum and am not familiar with it's quirks, if there is a wiki or something else that explains all that stuff then please point me to it.
 
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Oh by the way what's that agree thing showing on your post,
It shows that some member of the forum clicked the "agree" button under the post. This button serves to express an agreement of opinion with the author of a post.
I wonder how did you hit upon the idea of learning a language by simply using translation apps, without studying grammar? Have you had any success learning other languages that way?
 

OoTmaster

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I honestly hope you're joking about your approach to learning the language. No offense but it's a very ineffective way to learn the language that will only leave you frustrated. Even if you have the furigana in the book Kanji don't always make the same sound and you're quickly going to get confused as to how to pronounce a single Kanji because there isn't always/usually one answer. If you can't understand the usage of the the の's in that context you're going to have a bad time trying to learn that way.
 

zxuiji

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I wonder how did you hit upon the idea of learning a language by simply using translation apps, without studying grammar? Have you had any success learning other languages that way?
1st don't assume it's a translation app without actually asking what the app is, go to google play and look up JA sensei, that's the sort of app I mean, as for learning other languages I can say niether yes or no since english is the only language I currently speak and I only plan on learning japanese, finally as I'm a rather anti-social (along the lines of hikkomori I think it is called) person learning via anything other than reading is not an option for me so quit the jackass comments and try being helpful or shutting up, as the saying goes, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all (I'll accept constructive cristism though).

It shows that some member of the forum clicked the "agree" button under the post. This button serves to express an agreement of opinion with the author of a post.
Thank you for the clarification

I honestly hope you're joking about your approach to learning the language. No offense but it's a very ineffective way to learn the language that will only leave you frustrated. Even if you have the furigana in the book Kanji don't always make the same sound and you're quickly going to get confused as to how to pronounce a single Kanji because there isn't always/usually one answer. If you can't understand the usage of the the の's in that context you're going to have a bad time trying to learn that way.
My personality doesn't leave me a lot of options so I chose one I can do in comfort of my own home and at my own pace. As for your comment about the usage のs just because I think I understand the usage for that context it doesn't mean I don't wish to ask someone experienced to check my understanding of the direct english equivelent is correct, one can only learn a language if they ASK for help where they are not 100% certain. I would appreciate you did not belittle me for choosing to use the LEARNING section of this forum to ask for that help. I know about the sound issue which is why I chose to add the romaji I had understood it to be so as to get any possible corrections at the same time.
 
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OoTmaster

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I didn't mean to belittle you. I'm only suggesting you're going about learning a language the wrong way. It's not an effective way to learn. My suggestion is if that's your preferred way to learn that you pick up a book that explains language usage and grammar rather than trying to learn it via reading and rereading something you won't be able to understand completely.
 

zxuiji

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I didn't mean to belittle you. I'm only suggesting you're going about learning a language the wrong way. It's not an effective way to learn.
I've tried videos but I always got bored quickly and was a pain to find where I was when I come back to it and even if I didn't get bored watching too many made me feel ill instead so I chose to buy an actual book printed entirely in japanese aside from some publisher crap that has no relevance to the translation (only noticed when I opened it that is was printed in america, doesn't matter aside from some possible misprints) and just learn each word, particle and grammer piece one character at a time and re-read from the start of each day to help ingrain those words & kanji into my head, when I can read more than the 1st paragraph I will begin transcribing onto a notepad while reading to get the hang of writing it also. Basically I'm the type that normally does better when thrown in at the deep end.
 

OoTmaster

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My point is that it's not the "deep end" it's the "you aren't going to learn correctly" end. It's like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute your first time because you like a challenge. If you don't know grammar structures you're not going to understand what it's saying even if you know each word/phrase. You can't do an A = B approach with Japanese because it's nowhere near English. You have to think of Japanese as Japanese and approach it by learning from the ground up.
 

zxuiji

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That reference app I mentioned covers grammer also so the grammer is generally not an issue, it's just instances like my 1st post that I need confirmation on, once I can read about halfway through the book without looking at the app I'll look for somewhere in the forum to start practicing constructing the japanese through simple random conversation with a format something like this:

My 1st Post
=======
The kanji & kana version of my sentence
The romaji version I think is correct
The english meaning I intended to get across
------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply Post (Correcting or confirming)
=========
kanji & kana version
english meaning
------------------------
My Posts from there on
===================
My romaji version for the reply post's kanji & kana version

The kanji & kana version of my response
The romaji version I think is correct
The english meaning I intended to get across
------------------------------------------------------------------

I should also mention that I plan to watch some full japanese anime once I'm confident I'm frequently understanding the meaning of senetences correctly so as to get the hang of understanding what I hear a the same pace as what it is being spoken.

Edit: Basically I have planned my learning in a way that will work for me. Whether it is efficent or not doesn't matter to me as I'm in no rush.
 
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OoTmaster

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Just trying to save you time and trouble later on. If you're confident it will work for you feel free to use it. I simply used the word efficient to deter you the word that would be most appropriate I feel is effective not due to anything based on you just based off the approach. If it works for you that's great, but I have legitimate doubts about how effective this approach is going to be.
 

zxuiji

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Just trying to save you time and trouble later on. If you're confident it will work for you feel free to use it. I simply used the word efficient to deter you the word that would be most appropriate I feel is effective not due to anything based on you just based off the approach. If it works for you that's great, but I have legitimate doubts about how effective this approach is going to be.

Thanks but that's my issue to deal with, anyhow can we get back to my question, is my understanding of the usage of の in this title correct?
アリスの冒険不思議の国の

アリス=Arisu=Alice
の='s
冒険=bouken=Adventure
不思議の国=fushiginokuni=wonderland?
の=in?
 

OoTmaster

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The particle の show's possession. アリスの冒険 = Alice's Adventure 不思議の国 = strange/wonder country/land, Wonderland, maybe more literally in English "Land of Wonder/Strangeness". I would expect 話 or something similar after the last の unless my understanding of this is incorrect.
 

zxuiji

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The particle の show's possession. アリスの冒険 = Alice's Adventure 不思議の国 = strange/wonder country/land, Wonderland, maybe more literally in English "Land of Wonder/Strangeness". I would expect 話 or something similar after the last の unless my understanding of this is incorrect.

アリスの冒険不思議の国の is exactly how it appears on the book cover which is why I was having trouble, the 1st の I had already understood to be that possesion particle (metioned in the reference) and I was guessing the 2nd の intended for the word wonder to possess the word land (since there's no approipriate way to combine those in their current order it just becomes wonderland) and the 3rd の to be saying the 1st combo possess's the 2nd combo hence the in? next to it which would then have it's position corrected during translation to between the prior combos, but because there is also a の particle for ending sentences that can define questions or something else I currently forget I was confused as to whether this understanding was correct
 

OoTmaster

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I would expect either 不思議の国のアリス(の冒険) or アリスの冒険 subtitle 不思議の国. Perhaps it's odd usage or something I haven't come across.
 

Mike Cash

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You're not the first person in the history of Japanese learning who had this idea. While the idea may seem sound and plausible, anyone who has actually spent any time learning Japanese will tell you that it is the single most impractical and unworkable approach to learning Japanese that you could possibly come up with. It simply will not work. Yes, it is entirely possible to have success teaching yourself Japanese in the comfort of your own home...just not the way you propose to go about it.

Put aside the apps and the reference books for the time being. What you need are good textbooks. One of the most widely used is the Genki series, but there are others available, which other members will be happy to recommend to you if you wish. Get the textbooks and whatever workbooks and audio materials go with them. If you can't afford them or are too cheap, they exist online as pirated PDF files. Spare us the same nonsense every special snowflake gives us about "I'm special and I learn differently than everybody else"; we've heard that until it's coming out our ears. You're not that special and you're not going to have the least bit of success learning Japanese by attempting to decode (not read) a Japanese book.

Finish the two volumes of Genki first before you attempt to read anything (and even then you'll be amazed how incredibly far you are from being able to read anything with any speed or facility or without having to stop to look up 3/4 of everything on the page).

Consider this.... you've never had any success learning a language with your method, much less one which is as different from English as Japanese is. People who have had some success learning Japanese are trying to spare you some pointless anguish and gnashing of teeth out of the kindness of their hearts.

image.jpeg


The conductors are trying their best to give warning of the dangers ahead. Try to follow the example of the wise driver instead of being bullheaded and insisting on plunging blindly into the chasm.
 

zxuiji

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...I'm special...
When did I ever say that, as for the genki series that is certainly more helpful a comment, I was not aware of it and come payday I'll take a look but for now I'll stick with a legitment free method of which I am NOT rushing so I can really learn the kanji, kana, particles and grammer I come across. And once more please do us all a favour, DROP THE ATTITUDE or see a psychiatrist.
 

lanthas

 
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It's "不思議の国のアリスの冒険". Most likely the title of the book is written vertically, and the OP didn't know the columns are supposed to be read from right to left.
 

Mike Cash

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And once more please do us all a favour, DROP THE ATTITUDE or see a psychiatrist.

I'll not be bothering you again. Good luck with your endeavor. Let us know when you have finished chapter one.
 

zxuiji

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It's "不思議の国のアリスの冒険". Most likely the title of the book is written vertically, and the OP didn't know the columns are supposed to be read from right to left.
It appears this one was printed in our left to right style judging by the paragraphs inside, however thank you for reminding me japanese is usually in the opposite direction.

Edit:Having just looked at the way you put the title it certainly easy to understand as "Wonderland of Alice's Adventure" without even having to consult others
 
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OoTmaster

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It's "不思議の国のアリスの冒険". Most likely the title of the book is written vertically, and the OP didn't know the columns are supposed to be read from right to left.
Thank you this explains it to me. The title didn't seem to be correct to me but without seeing a picture of the cover itself I did not want to assume the original poster had made a mistake with the title they posted.
 

zxuiji

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I'll not be bothering you again. Good luck with your endeavor. Let us know when you have finished chapter one.
Thank you and given that I'm lazy it will probably take until payday for me to get through the 1st page, I have managed to get a moderate understanding of the 1st sentence of the 1st paragraph (I will continue consulting my references though until I'm sure I got my understanding correct then I will confirm via this forum), I'm guessing I'll probably stop confirming every sentence by the 5th paragraph
 

Toritoribe

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Just out of curiosity, what does the app you're using say about 不思議国のアリスの冒険? Does it tell you about the difference between them?
 

zxuiji

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Just out of curiosity, what does the app you're using say about 不思議国のアリスの冒険? Does it tell you about the difference between them?
Just in middle of reading a translated novel chapter of "The Latest Game is too Amazing", check back tommorrow since I'll probably forget to check tonight.

Edit:Just fixes it to Strange Land instead of allowing it to be translated as wonderland, a translator could still ignore that but since you asked I'm going with the only direct translation I can give for it

The second app I have (Kanji Study) has 不思議 listed as a female name though strangely while it does display the kana equivalent of fushigi the voice activation give fushini
 
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Toritoribe

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I wonder how you can learn about na-adjectives just from those translations. Decent textbooks no doubt explain it (how it conjugates, how it modifies nouns, etc.) in the relatively early stage of learning.

The second app I have (Kanji Study) has 不思議 listed as a female name though strangely while it does display the kana equivalent of fushigi the voice activation give fushini
The app must pronounce it as Fushigi. You just misheard 鼻濁音, I believe.
Japanese phonology - Wikipedia
 
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