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For her to fail to come ruined his plan.

hirashin

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Dear native English speakers,
Would the sentences below be used?
(a) For her to fail to come ruined his plan.
(b) Her failing to come ruined his plan.
(c) She failed to come, which ruined his plan.
(d) She failed to come so that it ruined his plan.
(e) She failed to come and it ruined his plan.
(f) She failed to come and that ruined his plan.

Thanks in advance.
Hirashin
 

Habaek

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Dear native English speakers,
Would the sentences below be used?
(a) For her to fail to come ruined his plan.
(b) Her failing to come ruined his plan.
(c) She failed to come, which ruined his plan.
(d) She failed to come so that it ruined his plan.
(e) She failed to come and it ruined his plan.
(f) She failed to come and that ruined his plan.

Thanks in advance.
Hirashin


Sir I'm not trying to confuse you but where do you keep finding these?
facepalm and I can't believe you teach this to others.

Is this book published a long time ago?
Nowadays when a person speaks towards his associates they shouldn't speak in such way.
The mention of "failed" and "plan" are extremely undesired.

Your thread title "For her to fail to come ruined his plan." is not incorrect, but only the antagonist of Harry Potter would use this sentence.
 
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Michael2

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They are slightly archaic phrases, but grammatically acceptable, apart from (d), or it has a different meaning at least. I think you should be able to tell us why (d) is different Hirashin. The use of "......so that......." is a staple of the SHS textbook:emoji_relaxed:
 

Lothor

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As Michael2 said, (a) and (b) sound archaic, particularly (a). (c), (e) and (f) sound fine to me.
I see the mistake in (d) a lot in my proofreading job (Habaek - take note, not robot sensei!) and it's interesting to hear that it might be being taught incorrectly to HS students.
'so that' should really only be used in the context of 'I'm saving up so that I can study abroad'.
 

johnnyG

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I think (a) and (d) are incorrect. My suggestions for (d) would turn it into either (e) or (f), and I might reword (a) as follows:

(a) For her to fail to come would ruin his plan.
(b) Her failing to come ruined his plan.
(c) She failed to come, which ruined his plan.
*(d) She failed to come so that it ruined his plan.
(e) She failed to come and it ruined his plan.
(f) She failed to come and that ruined his plan.

edit: Maybe "she" in (d) is intentionally trying to ruin his plan by not coming, so:
She failed to come so that it would ruin his plan.
But if that's the case, then instead of "failed", you'd probably have:
She didn't come (chose not to come) so that it would ruin his plan.
 
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hirashin

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Thanks for all your help.
How about these?
(d') She failed to come, so that it ruined his plan.
(d'') She failed to come, so it ruined his plan.
(g) ‘it was overgrown with brambles, so that I had difficulty making any progress’
(h) ‘The lawyer said the American was inebriated at the time, so that he had lost control of his actions.’
(i) ‘When it was translated it usually meant no more to her than it did in English, so that she did not know what to reply.’

g,h, and i are from Oxford Dictionary.
so | Definition of so in English by Oxford Dictionaries
 

johnnyG

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(d') She failed to come, so that it ruined his plan.
(d'') She failed to come, so it ruined his plan.

I guess I don't like "so that it"...! :emoji_confused:

I'd change (d') into (d''), or replace so that with and:
She failed to come, and it ruined his plan.
 

johnnyG

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So that other viewers don't have to go searching, here is the source that @hirashin is referring to:
Screen Shot 2018-04-02 at 7.40.18.png


I don't like using "that" in the 1.1 examples, and I would suggest to a student that not using it makes the sentences better/easier to understand. It is unnecessary.
(g) ‘it was overgrown with brambles, so that I had difficulty making any progress’
(h) ‘The lawyer said the American was inebriated at the time, so that he had lost control of his actions.’
(i) ‘When it was translated it usually meant no more to her than it did in English, so that she did not know what to reply.’

In 1.1, the dictionary says "so that" is used "With the result that." For me (US midwest), I'd say:
(g) ‘it was so overgrown with brambles, that I had difficulty making any progress’
(h) ‘The lawyer said the American was so inebriated at the time, that he had lost control of his actions.’
(i) ‘When it was translated it usually meant no more to her than it did in English, so that she did not know what to reply.’ (( <– I can't make something similar for this. And it's unrelated, but the use of "usually" in that sentence puzzles me. It seems to conflict with the first "it", tho if you change to "anything" it then is okay: When anything is..))

I'm okay with the usage of "so that" in 2. Those examples seem fine.
 
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Lothor

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Agree entirely with the above post (British English speaker).
 

hirashin

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Thank you for your help, johnnyG and Lothor.
I thought the usage was in British English, but it seems it isn't. I guess English learners should avoid using it.
 

Michael2

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All agreed. And I would say that
(g) ‘it was overgrown with brambles, so that I had difficulty making any progress’
(h) ‘The lawyer said the American was inebriated at the time, so that he had lost control of his actions.’
are simply incorrect. "So that" may decribe a result, but it must be an intended result, which the two examples above are not. "So" by itself can just describe a result, not implying a purpose or intention, so it would be acceptable.
 

hirashin

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Thank you for the help, Michael2.
I learned that we should be careful using sentences English dictionaries give even when they are written or edited by native speakers. (Does this sentence make sense? Would you please correct it if needed?)
 

Michael2

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That sentence is fine, and I would agree, especially with the example sentences given online. The definitions are accurate and I think would be the same as the definitions in print, but the example sentences don't seem to be of the same standard.
 
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