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Edo Jidai Trivia OT about medieval Europe

miles7tp

先輩
13 May 2004
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7
18
to Maciamo

But we are not talking about the same period. City walls surrounded European cities in the late middle ages, from about the 12th century to the early 16th century (so from the Kamakura to the Muromachi period in Japan). However, there were no city walls in Europe during the Edo period, and the nobility (=samurai) usually lived in castles or palaces outside the city, usually surrounded by a big park.

You miss the point of the argument.
You mistook the purpose of the moat of Edo. So, I showed you the structure of the city.
"The same age" just doesn't matter.
:?
In 17~18 century, Wien, Frankfurt, Geneve, Bordeaux, Stockholm etc... had walls.
Even Paris had partially the wall at that time. (I do not know whether it was the boundary line or not.)
It is 19 century when the walls of the many cities in Europe were broken down.
For a long time the wall was seen as the symbol of the city.


So the main difference between Europe and Japan during the Edo period was that the castle was the center of the city in Japan, and that the soldiers protecting this castle were the priviledged samurai class, not ordinary people.

There is no wonder that the castle town in Japan had the castle in the center of the city.
Because the city that has the castle in the center of the city is called the castle town.
😊
the other type of city
a post town "Shukuba machi"ツ宿ツ湘ェ窶卍ャ
a port city "Minato machi"ツ港窶卍ャ
a temple city "Monzen machi"窶禿・窶楼窶卍ャ

That was in fact more theoretical. I never quite understood why the samurai had to keep their sword and live around the lord's castle in such a prolonged time of peace if there was really no risk of rebellion.

The reason why the samurai lived around the castle is that the feudal lord needed to remove samurai from their fief. That policy is called "Heinou-bunri"窶「ツコ窶拈窶「ツェ窶板」.

From the 16th century, European nobles became very different from the Japanese samurai class. They were landed lords that usually didn't fight but discussed the arts and politics, sponsored famous artists or enjoyed themselves.

Before the Age of Great Voyages, Europe was far poorer than the Islamic world and Asia.
The crops were produced less than Asia.
The slaves(the European) were European chief exports.
(The others were leather goods, woolen goods, and a little silver).
The European merchants sold the pitiful European people to the rich Islamic world(Damascus, Bagdad) and bought raw silk, cotton, coral, pearl, porcelain, dyestuffs, spice, medicines, volatile oil, mineral oil, sugar, and many products made in Asia. The European women slaves were sold at high price. They were the genuine sex slaves(harem). In 15~16 century at the slave markets in Italy(Genua,Venice, Roma) and Spain, many pitiful European people were bought and sold. In 1550, in Tunis(the capital of Tunisia), about 30,000 European slaves worked. I hear that the historical fact that the European merchants had been selling many pitiful European Christians to rich Islamic world till 16 century is seldom written in European history textbooks. Is it taboo ?
:?
In such poor Europe, a few people of high birth enjoyed happy life by the slaves(the European) trade but the vast majority of people led poor life. In the late 18 century, while Europe was plundering the world by violence and brainwashing(Christianity), the European common people got to lead a little better life. After the Industrial Revolution, in England the common people could drink tea.

Davis, D Brion : The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture, Oxford, 1966
Roseberg, Nathan and Luther E. Birdzell : How the West Grew Rich, New York, 1986

Al Qaeda wiped out the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. In 16 century, in Kyushu, the missionaries from Europe brainwashed Japanese people and incited them to break the old shrines and temples. They dragged the Buddhist statues around the town. Luis Frois(1532~1597Jesuit priest) reported that it was wonderful that Japanese Christians had attacked paganism. The missionaries did the same thing in India. Monotheism seems to have no tolerance.
In the Edo period, Japan produced so much silver as Mexico. If Japan had not closed the door to European countries(except the Netherlands), Japan would have been plundered with opium trade by England like China.
:(
 
kaerupop said:
In 17~18 century, Wien, Frankfurt, Geneve, Bordeaux, Stockholm etc... had walls.

Some cities indeed kept all or parts of their old city walls because there was no reason to destroy them completely until the the late 18th century when the population started growing much faster. However, these walls were not used anymore. They did not serve any purpose apart from decoration, and often parts of them were destroyed to facilitate traffic. Some cities still have remains of these walls nowadays (e.g. Sevilla, Avignon, Aigues-Mortes, Maastricht...). Some still have parts of 2000-year old Roman walls (e.g. Tongeren in Belgium), eventhough nobody used them for over 1500 years. They have a historic and sentimental value, which is why we don't destroy them. It may be difficult to understand for a Japanese, as Japanese usually consider anything old as bad, and destroy them.

Before the Age of Great Voyages, Europe was far poorer than the Islamic world and Asia.

That is not quite true. Europe grew richer from the 13th and 14th century, a few centuries before the great voyages.

The slaves(the European) were European chief exports.

Any source ? I have never heard about that. Slavery did not exist in medieval Europe - only during the Antiquity, which ended in the 5th century. The reason is that Christianity forbids slavery of other Christians. In medieval times, there were serves, but they could not be bought/sold or killed like slaves. They were peasants working for a lord, like in Japan.

To be perfectly accurate, a slave trade did exist with North Africa and the Middle East, but these were prisoners of war and the trade was controlled almost exclusively by Jewish merchants. The prisoners were from Eastern Europe before it converted to Christianity, and slavery stopped around the 10th century (Heian period), when Eastern Europe became Christian. Russia was by far the last country to abolish slavery (15th century) then serfdom (19th century).

Sources

(The others were leather goods, woolen goods, and a little silver).

You seem to be very poorly informed about European trade in the late middle ages. Just in a tiny country like Belgium (then part of France or Germany), people produced world-class tapestries, goldware, silverware, jewelry (such as reliquaries), and some of the world's most famous paintings (ever heard of Brughel, Van Eyck or Memling ?).

There was of course much more than that in medieval Europe. Haven't you seen any of the great medieval cathedral of Europe like Notre-Dame of Paris, Rheims, Chartes in France, Burgos, Leon, Santiago in Spain, Pisa, Assisi or Milano in Italy, Salisbury, Lincoln or Winchester in England, just to name a few among hundreds of great medieval buildings. And I am not even talking about the much greater Renaissance, the Baroque and Classical architecture, paintings, sculptures and music that followed the Middle Ages. All these cathedrals were built during the late Heian, Kamakura and early Muromachi periods in Japan. What did Japan produce in arts during this period ? 2 Daibutsu and a few temples, the biggest of which (Todai-ji in Nara) was about the size of a big church or small cathedral. What about paintings, tapestries, stone sculptures, glass-work, etc. ?

These medieval buildings in Europe were the biggest buildings in the world for a long time, and had splendid sculptures, carvings, stain-glasses, paintings and gold decorations (of course, a lot has been destroyed with time and put into museums to avoid thefts) that no other country in the world could surpass. Lincoln Cathedral (built in the 13th century), in Northern England, was the first human construction to exceed the height of the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt, and remained the tallest building in the world until a storm destroyed the roof in 1549.

Even in the darkest age of European history, arts were still at least as advanced as in Japan. Just compare Carolingian art (780-900 AD) to Heian-period art.

Even medieval European calligraphy has nothing to envy to Islamic or Sino-Japanese calligraphy of the same period. Look at as many examples as you like, European medieval caligraphy was much more colourful, imaginative and richly decorated.

The European women slaves were sold at high price. They were the genuine sex slaves(harem). In 15~16 century at the slave markets in Italy(Genua,Venice, Roma) and Spain, many pitiful European people were bought and sold. In 1550, in Tunis(the capital of Tunisia), about 30,000 European slaves worked. I hear that the historical fact that the European merchants had been selling many pitiful European Christians to rich Islamic world till 16 century is seldom written in European history textbooks. Is it taboo ?

What are your sources ? Slavery of Christians was prohibited, which is why the Europeans went to Africa to find slaves from the 16th century.

In such poor Europe, a few people of high birth enjoyed happy life by the slaves(the European) trade but the vast majority of people led poor life.

If Europe was so much poorer than Asia (Middle-East, India, China, Japan, SE Asia ?), how comes that medieval and renaissance Europe has built bigger and more beautiful churches and castles, in bigger number (despite a smaller population), and more world-renowned works of arts than anywhere else in the world ? All Asians may have heard of Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci, but who can name famous Asian artists of the same period, even between Asian countries ?

Al Qaeda wiped out the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. In 16 century, in Kyushu, the missionaries from Europe brainwashed Japanese people and incited them to break the old shrines and temples. They dragged the Buddhist statues around the town.
...
Monotheism seems to have no tolerance.

Christianity and other monotheism are terrible religions. They have caused wars and misery around the world since their creation. In my opinion, they should disappear. In fact, Christianity is quickly disappaering from Europe. Most Europeans under 50 aren't Christians (mostly atheists, agnostics, deists and neo-pagans). But Christianity is still strong in the US and spreading to places like South Korea. Whenver I see Christian proselytizers with loudspeakers in the streets of Tokyo (e.g. in Ginza), it makes me sick. I wish this would be forbidden.

In the Edo period, Japan produced so much silver as Mexico.

It's one thing to mine the silver, but people should also produce great works of art with it. Japan is not really famous for making great silverware.

If Japan had not closed the door to European countries(except the Netherlands), Japan would have been plundered with opium trade by England like China.

Japan has always been more populous than any European country. The few hundreds European soldiers and adventurers that came to Japan could never have resisted against an organised army. Or were the samurai so coward and weak that they couldn't fight them ? Well, actually Japan sucessfully expelled the wicked Christian missionaries, which is a good thing. At least, Japan does not have too many Christians nowadays.
 
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to Maciamo

I advise you to read the following reports :
Davis, D Brion : The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture, Oxford, 1966
Roseberg, Nathan and Luther E. Birdzell : How the West Grew Rich, New York, 1986
👍
I think you are still in the fantasy.
😊
 
kaerupop said:
I advise you to read the following reports :
Davis, D Brion : The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture, Oxford, 1966

I have checked the book on Amazon (including the table of contents, back cover and excerpts), and this book is about slavery of Black people in the Americas. I haven't seen a single reference to slavery of Europeans in Europe of the Middle East. Have you even read the book ? I don't think there is a Japanese translation (couldn't find it on Amazon Japan), and I doubt that you English level is good enough for you to read a 500-page book of history in English.

Roseberg, Nathan and Luther E. Birdzell : How the West Grew Rich, New York, 1986

I also checked the book on Amazon, and this one is about "The Economic Transformation of the Industrial World" as the rest of the title (which who omitted) mentioned. The book description is "In this elegant synthesis of economic history, two scholars argue that it is the political pluralism and the flexibility of the West's institutions--not corporate organization and mass production technology--that explain its unparalleled wealth."

So basically, tis books' message is that the West grew rich, not because of black slavery, not because of colonisation, and not even because of the capitalist system, but because of a superior political system. In fact, we can still see a big gap between Western political systems and the one of Japan. That's why modern Japan has been called an economic giant, but a political dwarf. What was your point, by the way ?

I think you are still in the fantasy.

I actually can't believe that someboby would be dishonest enough to give references of books she hasn't read or have no relation to the topic discussed. You can't admit that what I say is true, and try to make me look ignorant with such comments as "I think you are still in the fantasy". That's very primitive and immature if you ask me.

You didn't even bother replying about why you thought that Europe was poor or backward during the Middle Ages, when I gave you the examples (with pictures) of a few great artistic achievements of Europe, that surpassed anything found in Japan or most of the world at the time. Medieval Europe was only poor and backward compared to the Europe of the following centuries. It is true that Europe got rich from colonisation and Black slavery, but that's mostly true of Britain, France and the US. Spain and Portugal were great colonial powers, but became and still are much poorer than non-colonial powers like Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway or Finland.

What is more, it is not true that Europe was backward compared to Asia during anytime in the history, except maybe during the chaotic period after the collapse of the Roman Empire from the 6th to the 9th century. But even then, Japan was much more backward, it only got its first writing system and first permanent capital at the time. The Vikings in Scandinavia at the time already had an egalitarian, democratic society at the time. The world's first parliaments were founded by the Vikings in Iceland and the Isle of Man (between England and Ireland) during the Heian period.
 
It is common knowledge that before the Age of Great Voyages, Europe was far poorer than the Islamic world and Asia.
All over the world, we can read that historical fact in the general books on world history.
If you read Japanese, I advise you to read this book.
ツ青「ナ?E窶堙娯?氾ーナスj25ツ 窶吮??窶ー窶コナ津カヒ彑ナステ青 "A HISTORY OF THE WORLDツ 25" p111


before the Age of Great Voyages --- 15 century
agricultural production
Asia --- rich ---- hot and warm district
harvest 100 (per 1 seed)
Europe ---- poor --- cold district
harvest 5~6 (per 1 seed)
business
Asia ------------ Malacca was the center of the world trade. Yuan and Ming were the great business countries.
Europe -------- European merchants saw "Zipangu" in a vision.
shipbuilding
Asia ------- Chinese civilization, the ship -- 120m -- the mighty expedition窶廣ヒ彗窶堙娯?佚・窶ー窶慊青ェ(1405~1433)
Europe --- the ship -- Santa/Maria 25m


European people could produce the world-class tapestries, the world's most famous paintings, the great cathedrals, glass-work, splendid carvings.
But they could not produce raw silk, cotton, coral, pearl, dyestuffs, spice, medicines, tea and sugar.
Why ? The reason is that Europe is a cold district.

Till Portugal occupied Malacca in 1511, Islamic merchants had monopolized the trade between East and West.
European merchants bought the valuable goods made in Asia from Islamic merchants.
At that time Europe people could not produce nifty exports except a small quantity of silver.
Islamic merchants did not need the wonderful arts made in Europe.
What did European merchants sell ?
:?
It was in late 18 century when European rich people(except the English) could change underwear once a week.The washable cloth, cotton, was valuable imports from India for a long time.
:)
In the Middle Ages, Viking sold slaves(European) and fur in Armenia, and they bought pepper, cinnamon, silk goods, velvet, pearl, jewel and sugar.
I will trace the word,"slave", to its origin.
:eek:
Japanese farmers were not serves.
 
miles7tp said:
European people could produce the world-class tapestries, the world's most famous paintings, the great cathedrals, glass-work, splendid carvings.
But they could not produce raw silk, cotton, coral, pearl, dyestuffs, spice, medicines, tea and sugar.
Why ? The reason is that Europe is a cold district.

People do not produce coral, pearl, raw silk, tea or spices. Animals/plants do. Tapestries, paintings, buildings, etc. are man-made.

Till Portugal occupied Malacca in 1511, Islamic merchants had monopolized the trade between East and West.

Islam is only a religion. Were they Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Indian, Malaysian ?
I am sure that the wealth this trade generated enables them to build great edifices and make great works of arts. But poorer Europe (as you said) still managed to do better and more numerous buildings and works of arts with less wealth and resources. Isn't that great ?

European merchants bought the valuable goods made in Asia from Islamic merchants.
...
Islamic merchants did not need the wonderful arts made in Europe.
What did European merchants sell ?

And vice-versa. Islamic merchants bought European wool, furs, wheat and oat, tapestries, velvets, carpets, clothes, furniture, jewelry, glass arts, beer, wine, honey, wax, oil, salt, etc.

Why do you think that European countries are still the world leaders in fashion, jewelry, design furniture, wine & beer making, etc. ? The know-how did not come up from nothing. It is a long process of refining through the ages. For example, many Belgian beer breweries were founded in the Middle Ages (e.g. Leffe founded in 1152, Grimbergen founded in 1128, Stella Artois founded in 1366...).

At that time Europe people could not produce nifty exports except a small quantity of silver.

You are just displaying your ignorance.

In the Middle Ages, Viking sold slaves(European) and fur in Armenia

The Vikings were not Christians. Scandinavians were among the last Europeans (with Eastern Europe) to convert to Christianity. Note that the Vikings only represented a tiny percentage of the whole European population. Even today, Scandinavia only has 18 million inhabitants, and all Europe (without Russia) has about 500 million.

and they bought pepper, cinnamon, silk goods, velvet, pearl, jewel and sugar.

Velvet and jewels were also produced in Europe. Velvet first appeared (in China) in the 14th century, so it's impossible that the Vikings bought it, as the Vikings lasted only until the 11t century.

The others are just raw goods. One can live without pepper, cinnamon, pearl and silk, even nowadays.

What is strange is that the Europeans were the first to make jam, biscuits and cubes of sugar once they could import a lot of sugar cane from America. France wa also the first country to produce sugar from beets. Since then (above 200 years ago), Europe has produced its own sugar.

Japanese farmers were not serves.

Yes, they were. Serve does not mean slave. Like in Europe, Japanese peasants had to pay a tax to their local lord (usually rice) to have the right to cultivate the land. They had to pay respect to their lord, bow deep in front of him, and the lord had to right to punish them (even by death) if he wanted. Both medieval European and Japanese peasant didn't have a family name. The situation in medieval Europe and pre-Meiji Japan was basically the same in this regard.
 
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Maciamo said:
Yes, they were. Serve does not mean slave. Like in Europe, Japanese peasants had to pay a tax to their local lord (usually rice) to have the right to cultivate the land. They had to pay respect to their lord, bow deep in front of him, and the lord had to right to punish them (even by death) if he wanted. Both medieval European and Japanese peasant didn't have a family name. The situation in medieval Europe and pre-Meiji Japan was basically the same in this regard.

Pre-modern Edo Japanese was lucky not to suffer from wars, and it was lucky that ordinary people incl. city dwellers and farmers enjoyed and developed, I should say "refined", their own culture.

Now a stereotyped Japanese may be one who always carrys camera, but in 16th century, it was Japanese with guns as an old European map described.
 
miles7tp said:
At that time Europe people could not produce nifty exports except a small quantity of silver.
Adding to what Maciamo said: Did you ever hear of the Hanseatic League?
 
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