Easier way to think of で particle

[zxuiji]

Opened up genki to find the last page I read was on the で particle, I've seen it refered to as the "by" particle, I think it better to to think of it as the "via" particle since "by" is too restrictive compared to the particle's usages, any thoughts?

 

[Majestic]

で serves so many functions, it is impossible to reduce it to a one-for-one translation of an English word. So "by" is an appropriate and useful translation in some cases, and "via" will be a better choice for other cases, and there are a million other usages where neither via nor by will work well.

 

[zxuiji]

Could you give me some examples of those other cases please? btw really into dragon quest builders 2 lately so don't be to surprised if I'm late to respond

 

[Kraise]

Could you give me some examples of those other cases please? btw really into dragon quest builders 2 lately so don't be to surprised if I'm late to respond

「いつまでも友達でいたい」

 

[Majestic]

中学校では教えてくれない
このへんで終わりにしよう
これで足りるでしょう
neither via nor by works for any of these, and there will be many more examples I'm sure.

 

[zxuiji]

Thanks 🙂, about to start work so will have to examine those later although the first one I'm having trouble with the last bit of grammar, I got
"when from also friend want to/via pain"

 

[Majestic]

"I always want to be friends"

いたい＝ want to be
いたい（痛い）＝pain

Beware of the vast number of homonyms in Japanese. And also note that this sentence was given as an example of how "via" is not an appropriate translation for で.

 

[zxuiji]

Thanks for the translation, pointed out a new grammar/word (not really sure which to call it) I had yet to encounter.
I will point out however that that case is for natural english, I meant just being able to translate correct meaning in one's head, conversion to natural english normally happens after that if the phrase is converted slower than quick statements like 僕は神さまにお祈りする (I hope I did that right)

 

[Majestic]

The で in いつまでも友達でいたい would be something like

I always want to be (in the state of being) friends.

You wouldn't be able to use "via" there.
I always want to be (via) friends. So even if you were first converting it into unnatural English, and then cleaning it up, you would need to find another word other than "via".

 

[zxuiji]

Nah, the cleaning up part would just remove it altogether then add another if deemed necessary since the meaning still comes across with via, just sounds hella akward/weird