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Double negative and imperfect

Zhivago

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Double negative used in "have to do.." is quite brain killer, and now I'm trying to work it in past tense..

Well, I'd like to say something on lines "I had to go bed early"

So is

早く寝なくてはいけませんだった。

correct ?

or do I need to dabble with 'go to bed' verb too?

Or is the whole thing mambo-jambo?

Thanks for the help.
 

cacawate

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Kinda sounds weird mixing plain and honorific tenses together.

How about
早く寝なくてはいけませんでした
早く寝なくちゃいけなかった
早く寝なければいけませんでした
早く寝なきゃいけなかった

Try those out or if someone made you, you can use the causative/passive-causitive form. ~される・~させられる
 

Zhivago

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Thanks for quick answer, and..

I'd want it all in plain, as I'm writing about myself.

//早く寝なきゃいけなかった//

What is the 'きゃ' part meaning/doing there ?

//早く寝なくちゃいけなかった//

same question here with ちゃ (is this でわ here ? )

I'm studied japanese only for 7 months or so, so I don't unfortunaetly compared those short pieces in that context. I get the feeling they are from spoken japanese. I might be well wrong.


And would

早く寝なくてはいけなかった

be sufficient ?
 

nice gaijin

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@cacawate 's quite right about the tenses, other than you were grammatically correct.

~きゃ and ~ちゃ are abbreviated versions of ~てはいけません both are tacked onto the negative forms of the verb:

ちゃ i usually hear with いけない. ex: 寝なくちゃいけない
きゃ is even shorter and less formal, I rarely hear いけない used with it ex: 寝なきゃ

which one you use really depends more about your audience than yourself, who are you talking or writing to?
 

Zhivago

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I'm supposed to keep a diary for one week in summer. So I guess I'm writing to myself. 😊 So I think being impolite will do... ?

Though our teacher will eventually get to read it too.

so 早く寝なくてはいけなかった is all good ?


Thanks for the clearing out.

Our teacher has a thing about using abbreviated versions of words, well not in spoken language, but if we are supposed to write something, we'd better write as it should be written.
 

nice gaijin

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yeah 寝なくてはいけなかった is fine, and i agree with your teacher that if you're going to write it it should be properly for practice. I use the abbreviated versions in writing only when I'm chatting with friends online.

what cacawate was saying with the causative forms, if someone made you go to bed, you could say 誰かに寝させられた。 寝なくてはいけなかった just states that to not go to bed would be bad, it doesn't imply that anyone told you to go to bed.
 

Damicci

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Zhivago what level Japanese class are you taking?
I am curious to find out the type of content that I may run into in my class.
I have never taken a class before so I am not sure what my level "Really" is?
 

nice gaijin

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Damicci,

Judging from your blog, your japanese is pretty good for never having taken a class. I would place you around 2 semesters by my school's standard, although I noticed several grammatical mistakes. The biggest thing you have going for you is that you are practicing. You just need to avoid getting into those bad habits, I'll list a few for you to avoid in the future:

~~~
particles mistakes are common, your teacher will undoubtedly correct you on that. for example, 本当面白い->本当に面白い, 車で乗る->車に乗る,

~~~
mixing the tenses, such as "ありましたと思いました。" unless you are using separate clauses (such as something kedo something, etc), the grammar within a sentence must use the dictionary form (ie: あると思いました。)

for い-adjectives, such as いい、おかしい、面白い、偉い etc, if you are using the casual form you do not want to add "だ” after them, ×これは面白いだ->これは面白い. you can and should use です if you are using the polite form

However, you want to avoid using the dictionary (casual) form at the end of a negative sentence with です, like "好きじゃないです". either remove the です altogether (to make the sentence casual), or to maintain the politeness of the sentence, use 好きじゃありません。

~~~
古い means old, but is only used for inanimate object. if you are referring to an "old friend" that you haven't seen in a long time, use 昔の友達. You can also be more specific and say something like 高校の時の友達 (a friend from when I was in high school) or しばらく会っていない友達 (a friend I have not met in a while).

~~~
when you said 一時間と三十分間ごろ話しました。 i had to stop for a second. to say you spoke for an hour and a half would be 一時間半話しました。(半 means half, if you wanted to say an hour and twenty minutes, it'd be 一時間二十分, no particle is necessary)

the word to approximate an amount of something (time, money, weight) is ぐらい/くらい. ごろ is for about a certain point of time 一時半ごろ話しました would be you talked at around 1:30, 一時間半ぐらい話しました would be you spoke for about an hour and a half.

~~~
the use of これ・それ・あれ・どれ vs この・その・あの・どの is a bit off in places;

"このは仕事で私の机の下を見つけた。" is a bit odd, it translates to (I found the underneath of my desk at work)

The use of この requires a noun to follow it, like この本 or この虫. これ translates to this one, and is treated like a noun itself.

I think you wanted to say これは仕事場の自分の机の下で見つけた虫です。(This is a bug I found under my desk at work)

~~~
The fact alone that you practice is a good sign; you have the motivation to learn. Once you fall out of those bad habits, the more complicated grammar structures will be much easier.
 

sasame

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Zhivago said:
so 早く寝なくてはいけなかった is all good ?
I had to.         I had to bed.       I had to say.
(A)しなくてはいけなかった。 寝なくてはいけなかった。 言わなくてはいけなかった。
(B)しないといけなかった。  寝ないといけなかった。  言わないといけなかった。 
(C)しなきゃいけなかった。  寝なきゃいけなかった。  言わなきゃいけなかった。 
(D)しなくちゃいけなかった。 寝なくちゃいけなかった。 言わなくちゃいけなかった。

(C) and (D) is often used for the everyday talk.
(C)と(D)は、日常的な会話の中でよく使われます。

I think that (A) is the best if it uses it in sentences.
文章中に使うのであれば、(A) を使うのが良いと思います。

If sentences that you write are "ですます調", it becomes "しなくてはいけませんでした".
あなたの書く文章が「ですます調」なら、それは「しなくてはいけませんでした」となります。
 

Zhivago

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@Damicci

Well, guess the level would intermediate, or basics after elementary stuff. My english vocabulry is bit lacking on subject.

Thanks everybody.
 

Damicci

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nice gaijin said:
Damicci,

Judging from your blog, your japanese is pretty good for never having taken a class. I would place you around 2 semesters by my school's standard, although I noticed several grammatical mistakes. The biggest thing you have going for you is that you are practicing. You just need to avoid getting into those bad habits, I'll list a few for you to avoid in the future:

~~~
particles mistakes are common, your teacher will undoubtedly correct you on that. for example, 窶怒窶懌?凪?禿岩?昶?吮?堋「->窶怒窶懌?凪?堙俄?禿岩?昶?吮?堋「, ナステ披?堙?湘ヲ窶堙ゥ->ナステ披?堙可湘ヲ窶堙ゥ,

~~~
mixing the tenses, such as "窶堋?窶堙ィ窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋ス窶堙?スv窶堋「窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋スツ。" unless you are using separate clauses (such as something kedo something, etc), the grammar within a sentence must use the dictionary form (ie: 窶堋?窶堙ゥ窶堙?スv窶堋「窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋スツ。ツ)

for 窶堋「-adjectives, such as 窶堋「窶堋「ツ、窶堋ィ窶堋ゥ窶堋オ窶堋「ツ、窶禿岩?昶?吮?堋「ツ、ヒ?娯?堋「 etc, if you are using the casual form you do not want to add "窶堋セツ” after them, ツ×窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙坂?禿岩?昶?吮?堋「窶堋セ->窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙坂?禿岩?昶?吮?堋「. you can and should use 窶堙??堋キ if you are using the polite form

However, you want to avoid using the dictionary (casual) form at the end of a negative sentence with 窶堙??堋キ, like "ツ好窶堋ォ窶堋カ窶堙。窶堙遺?堋「窶堙??堋キ". either remove the 窶堙??堋キ altogether (to make the sentence casual), or to maintain the politeness of the sentence, use ツ好窶堋ォ窶堋カ窶堙。窶堋?窶堙ィ窶堙懌?堋ケ窶堙アツ。

~~~
ナ津??堋「 means old, but is only used for inanimate object. if you are referring to an "old friend" that you haven't seen in a long time, use ツ静娯?堙娯?認窶傳. You can also be more specific and say something like ツ坂?堋校窶堙固スナセ窶堙娯?認窶傳 (a friend from when I was in high school) or 窶堋オ窶堙寂?堙ァ窶堋ュ窶ーテッ窶堙≫?堙??堋「窶堙遺?堋「窶認窶傳 (a friend I have not met in a while).

~~~
when you said ヒ?ェナスナセナ?テ披?堙?スOツ十窶「ツェナ?テ披?堋イ窶堙ォヒ彙窶堋オ窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋スツ。 i had to stop for a second. to say you spoke for an hour and a half would be ヒ?ェナスナセナ?テ披?敖シヒ彙窶堋オ窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋スツ。(窶敖シ means half, if you wanted to say an hour and twenty minutes, it'd be ヒ?ェナスナセナ?テ披?愿アツ十窶「ツェ, no particle is necessary)

the word to approximate an amount of something (time, money, weight) is 窶堋ョ窶堙ァ窶堋「/窶堋ュ窶堙ァ窶堋「. 窶堋イ窶堙ォ is for about a certain point of time ヒ?ェナスナセ窶敖シ窶堋イ窶堙ォヒ彙窶堋オ窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋ス would be you talked at around 1:30, ヒ?ェナスナセナ?テ披?敖シ窶堋ョ窶堙ァ窶堋「ヒ彙窶堋オ窶堙懌?堋オ窶堋ス would be you spoke for about an hour and a half.

~~~
the use of 窶堋ア窶堙ェツ・窶堋サ窶堙ェツ・窶堋?窶堙ェツ・窶堙??堙ェ vs 窶堋ア窶堙個・窶堋サ窶堙個・窶堋?窶堙個・窶堙??堙 is a bit off in places;

"窶堋ア窶堙娯?堙最スdナス窶凪?堙?ス窶樞?堙固?テキ窶堙娯?ーツコ窶堙ーナ陳ゥ窶堙や?堋ッ窶堋スツ。" is a bit odd, it translates to (I found the underneath of my desk at work)

The use of 窶堋ア窶堙 requires a noun to follow it, like 窶堋ア窶堙娯?怒 or 窶堋ア窶堙娯?卩ス. 窶堋ア窶堙ェ translates to this one, and is treated like a noun itself.

I think you wanted to say 窶堋ア窶堙ェ窶堙最スdナス窶督湘ェ窶堙固スツゥ窶「ツェ窶堙固?テキ窶堙娯?ーツコ窶堙?陳ゥ窶堙や?堋ッ窶堋ス窶卩ス窶堙??堋キツ。(This is a bug I found under my desk at work)

~~~
The fact alone that you practice is a good sign; you have the motivation to learn. Once you fall out of those bad habits, the more complicated grammar structures will be much easier.

I need a praise ICON.
Thank you so much I will definately note your suggestions. I really appreciate this. :sorry: :sorry:

P.S. I would like to add this quote to my blog to also help remind me of the mistakes to avoid. Once beaten into my head the correct way of using particles i know my speech patterns and writing will become that much better. THANKS AGAIN!!!
 

nice gaijin

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no problem. I might check your blog every now and then to give you a few pointers. I admire your gumption :)

you can leave rep points by clicking that scale next to the red warning sign below my avatar, since you asked.
 

Mikawa Ossan

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I just want to add that the earlier reference to きゃ is not really a shortened form of ~てはいけません, although the final meaning is indeed the same.
きゃis a shortened form of ければ, as in
早く寝なければいけなかった ⇒ 早く寝なきゃいけなかった

Another way to say this would be
早く寝ないとだめだった
I hear this pattern quite a bit, too.
 

blade_bltz

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What about this form?

nakereba naranai (nakya naranai, etc)

I've always wondered how naranai changes the nuance of the sentence.

Also, if I were to say something like, "I wanted to go to the party, but I had to write a paper."

How would this be: paatii ni ikitaindesuga, sakubun wo kakanai to dame desu.

For some reason, I can't shake the feeling that "sakubun wo kakanai to dame ni naru" sounds better. Is this just a weird hunch of mine?
 

Mikawa Ossan

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blade_bltz said:
What about this form?

nakereba naranai (nakya naranai, etc)

I've always wondered how naranai changes the nuance of the sentence.

Also, if I were to say something like, "I wanted to go to the party, but I had to write a paper."

How would this be: paatii ni ikitaindesuga, sakubun wo kakanai to dame desu.

For some reason, I can't shake the feeling that "sakubun wo kakanai to dame ni naru" sounds better. Is this just a weird hunch of mine?

IMHO as a non-native Japanese speaker, there is little if no difference in nuance between the two, ~ikenai and ~naranai.
I used to have the exact same question, too. I was told it's the same, and in practical usage, they do indeed seem to be the same.

Your Japanese sentence is in the present tense, so it reads "I want to go to the party, but I have to write a paper." To put it in the past tense, it would be better to say,
パーティーに行きたかったですけどペーパーを書かないとだめだったんです。
If you say だめになる it gets more complicated, but it's not the meaning you wish to convey. I'll try to explain later if you want. (I'm sorry, but I had a long day at work today.)
 
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