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Dokoni nihonnokata imasuka

@PaulTB Lol.

Why "ga?" I think that "wa" would be more suitable, but then again I have never really understood all of the nuances of "wa." My reasoning is this: "nihon no kata" is a pretty universal subject. By that I mean that everyone knows that there are Japanese people. In cases like this, it seems to me that they need not be introduced or explained. However, if you meant to make "nihon no kata" a focus, as in "where are the Japanese people?" then it would be better to use "ga." Of course, I guess that would depend on what harumori wanted to say.

Here is a side question, now that I am thinking about this. If the case particle is dropped in a case like this, what is the understood particle? What would most Japanese think if they heard a sentence like this?
 
Glenn said:
@PaulTB Lol.

Why "ga?" I think that "wa" would be more suitable, but then again I have never really understood all of the nuances of "wa."

Me neither. Which is why I don't have a 'reasoning' to support my choice - it just felt better.

My reasoning is this: "nihon no kata" is a pretty universal subject. By that I mean that everyone knows that there are Japanese people.
Everybody knows that there are Japanese people - but can you assume Japanese people as the topic in the subject header of a new thread?

(I honestly don't know - but my gut feeling was for 'ga')
 
PaulTB said:
Everybody knows that there are Japanese people - but can you assume Japanese people as the topic in the subject header of a new thread?

I would guess that you could, because while it is a new thread, that does not change the fact that people know about Japanese people, like they know about the earth. If you were starting a new thread about how big the earth is, I would assume that you could say "地球はどんなに大きいのか" or something to that effect. It seems to me that you would not need to mark "地球" as new information with the nominative marker. The only reason that I could see for using "が" would be to make earth the focus, i.e. "how big is earth?"

I honestly don't know - but my gut feeling was for 'ga'

I know what you mean. There have been many times when I said or wrote something just because it seemed right or because it seemed "Japanese" (not that I've always been right, of course). :)
 
Glenn said:
I know what you mean. There have been many times when I said or wrote something just because it seemed right or because it seemed "Japanese" (not that I've always been right, of course). :)
We'll both just have to wait for a Japanese native speaker to pass through.

Where do you suppose they are? :D
 
dokoni nihonnokata ga imasuka

ga is used because the emphasis is on what is prior to ga which is "where is it". If "wa" is used, emphasis is what's after wa, which is "is it there". However, this is weird because, usually the emphasis is on the question, which in this case, is "doko". If wa must be used, probably need to restructure the sentence into "nihonnokata wa dokoni imasuka".

I can only quote all these based on what I've learned academically. In practical, it may not apply though. This is the part I lack in experience. moshi machigattara, oshietekudasai...
 
beluga said:
dokoni nihonnokata ga imasuka

ga is used because the emphasis is on what is prior to ga which is "where is it". If "wa" is used, emphasis is what's after wa, which is "is it there". However, this is weird because, usually the emphasis is on the question, which in this case, is "doko". If wa must be used, probably need to restructure the sentence into "nihonnokata wa dokoni imasuka".

Right, "ga" puts emphasis on what comes before it, but only what it is marking. It won't put emphasis on "doko ni" no matter where "doko ni" appears, because it is already marked by "ni."

I'm pretty sure the same applies to "wa" as well. If you were to say "居間に皆は集まっている," it may sound unnatural but "wa" wouldn't apply to "ima." "Wa" would only apply to all that has come before it when what comes before it is seen as a single unit, and the entire clause is marked by "wa." E.g. "居間に集まっているのは皆だ。" In this case, you are saying "it is everyone who is gathered in the living room." Here, "居間に集まっているの" is seen as a single unit, "(those who are) gathered in the living room," and "wa" marks the whole unit. Note that の can be replaced by 人, 皿, 社員, etc., because it is the indefinite pronoun, much like its function in "安いの" as "cheap one" (I was just thinking of it as being people). But in the former example "居間に皆" is not a single unit, so "wa" cannot mark all of it.
 
harumori said:
watashi wa itteimasu...

erm. The sentence should be corrected to this if this is what you mean : doko ni nihon ga imasu ka? which means where is japan? nihon no naka means in japan or inside japan. Like Glenn said the topic is too wide already. Also, after no naka, I think there should be a noun after it. ga is used to mark the noun so it will be something like there is a japan etc.
 
lzydesmond said:
erm. The sentence should be corrected to this if this is what you mean : doko ni nihon ga imasu ka? which means where is japan? nihon no naka means in japan or inside japan. Like Glenn said the topic is too wide already. Also, after no naka, I think there should be a noun after it. ga is used to mark the noun so it will be something like there is a japan etc.

Huh? It's "nihonnokata", not "nihonnonaka". kata is a polite form of person.
 
lzydesmond said:
hmmm.. Eye error. Okay, kata. then what is the diff between nihonjin and nihonkata? noob here.

"Nihonjin" is the standard word for Japanese people. "Nihon no kata" is more polite, as Beluga said. However, while you can say both "nihonjin" (日本人)and "nihon no hito" (日本の人), you cannot say "nihongata" (日本方). To elaborate, "kata" is used in place of "hito" when one is trying to be more polite. So "一時間以上で待っている人はこちらへ来て・ださい" (ichi jikan ijou de matteiru hito wa kochira e kite kudasai) is not as polite as "一時間以上で待っているはこちらへ来て・ださい" (ichi jikan ijou de matteiru kata wa kochira e kite kudasai). Both sentences mean "Those who have waited for more than one hour please come this way."
 
I don't have a good reason for it either, but to me at least "Nihonjin wa" somehow has more the sense "Where can you find Japanese people" or "Where are they located" rather than where are the ones in particular who (used to, anyway) frequent this board.
 
Elizabeth said:
I don't have a good reason for it either, but to me at least "Nihonjin wa" somehow has more the sense "Where can you find Japanese people" or "Where are they located" rather than where are the ones in particular who (used to, anyway) frequent this board.

I tried sci.lang.japan* and got two votes for 'ga' and no votes for anything else.

I also found a close-ish match
くぅみょんのだいありーいうよりひとりごと
いったいどこに日本の方がおられるのかしら?

* When Google catches up you can catch the thread here.

[Edit] Make that three votes for 'ga' and no votes for anything else.

P.S. Being invisible doesn't hide you very well if you are a) the only invisible one and b) you show up in the number for the total members viewing a forum. :D
 
PaulTB said:
P.S. Being invisible doesn't hide you very well if you are a) the only invisible one and b) you show up in the number for the total members viewing a forum. :D
Better just to have some indication on the person's postings as to whether they are active or not....since I don't think the listing at the bottom of the main page is in real time, although my suggestion hasn't worked at other forums either ;).
 
It's definitely ga, the hard part here is vocalizing why. I think it's because nihon-no-kata is the subject, not the topic. I believe there is an implied topic such as
koko (ni) ha doko ni nihonnokata ga imasu ka

But I think the following sounds okay, so it's definitely confusing:
nihonnokata ha doko ni imasuka
 
The sci.lang.japan thread took off quite well (and Google has now caught up with it).

The final consensus seems to be
"could use either, but the nuance would be different and 'ga' would
probably be most appropriate."
but it wasn't the nuance I was thinking of.

P.S. Google mangled some of the encoding - if you've got a newsreader use that instead.
 
PaulTB said:
We'll both just have to wait for a Japanese native speaker to pass through.
I don't know accurate grammar, but I can say something as a native speaker.

First, the only strange point about "dokoni nihonnokata imasuka " sentence is, the disorder of keigo degree. "nihonnokata" is highly polite, while "imasuka" isn't. So you'd better say "nihonno-kata orare-masuka", "nihonno-kata irasshai-masuka", or "nihonjin imasuka".

Second, about "wa","ga" or "(blank)" issue, "nihonno-kata wa irasshai-masuka" is most natural for natives as kaki-kotoba(>>writing expression?). I suppose this is the most accurate from the grammatical point of view.

"nihonno-kata irasshai-masuka" also natural, especially hanashi-kotoba(>>colloquial/speaking expression?). This pattern may be of frequent use than "wa" in daily, informal conversations.

"nihonno-kata ga irasshai-masuka" has a slight(or certain---context decides it) nuance of ネソク・hango>>irony?) or ウエテイ(gaitan>>deploring?). When you say "dokoni nihonno-kata ga irasshai-masuka" as "where are the Japanese people?", it sounds strage (or very foreigner-lish).

hango example:
"nihonno-kata ga irasshai-masuka?(inner voice:But in fact I know there're none)"
gaitan example:
"nihonno-kata ga irasshai-masuka?(inner voice:Ah, no longer here aren't any)"


ps. I wrote kanjis in EUC-code.
 
hmm... I wonder... I think the sentence should be changed to 窶愿コ窶怒窶堙固耽窶堙坂?堙??堋ア窶堙俄?堋「窶堙懌?堋キ窶堋ゥツ。
btw, is this the correct kanji for kata?
 
lzydesmond said:
hmm... I wonder... I think the sentence should be changed to 日本の型はどこにいますか。
btw, is this the correct kanji for kata?

Nope, 型 mean type or shape. The correct one is 方.
 
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