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Do soldiers and vets deserve automatic respect?

Mark of Zorro

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4 Oct 2012
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Okay, well, to be fair, NOBODY truly deserves automatic respect just for membership in a group. Every group has its devils. But we cannot separate the devils from the angels just by looking at them, so it has been decided by society that members of certain groups get automatic respect until its proven beyond a doubt that certain individuals don't deserve it.

Soldiers and vets are groups that society tells us deserve automatic respect. But for me, it depends largely on what wars have been fought lately, if any, and such other proofs. So my answer is no.

I think I know one of, if not the, biggest reasons say soldiers deserve automatic respect, and I think it is so that men will join with less hesitation than they otherwise would. Its a big benefit to get automatic respect in life, whether its trying to get a job or trying to get a date. So joining is an automatic guarantee of a leg up unless you really screw up. Of course, another big reason to say soldiers deserve automatic respect is simply from people who NEED such advantages in life. Far be it for them to attempt to nix such a possibility.

I would automatically show respect for Swiss soldiers. As far as I know none in recent memory have been in involved in any atrocities or wars. They are there for the self-defense of Switzerland only and have none alive have been at war as far as I know. The only thing I have that would downplay the respect is that they had to join up by law.

For some reason though I don't feel the same about Japanese SDF soldiers, although I cannot think of a logical reason why. Every one of them joined up of their own free will. I guess I question their motives for some reason. Somehow I don't think its all about defending Japan.

American soldiers I respect the least of all, excepting perhaps soldiers of the Syrian government. Of course that is based on my own personal knowledge, and some country's military may have escaped by attention. About the only free pass I have is for American WWII vets. I always start from a position of respect for them. But as I cannot find any reasonable validation for American participation in any war since then, I cannot automatically respect any soldier after that, with the Korean War being a border-line case. And on top of the question of validity of the wars themselves, there has also been the question of how the wars were prosecuted and the secrecy surrounding the fact that ever idiot is aware of. So I have very little respect for American soldiers and if any tell me he fought for my freedom I am liable to flip him the bird.

I also have little respect for Chinese and Russian soldiers given Chinese actions against their own people and Russian actions against the Chechnyans.

If any of those want respect from me, they better talk a good talk and make a great accounting of themselves. It would be precious few who could convince me I think.

So anyway, some say that if we don't automatically respect soldiers, we won't get many to join up. And that is my point EXACTLY. We don't need so many soldiers. Its not worth the death that comes with them.
 
First of all, who claimed that soldiers and veterans deserve more respect than other strata of society?

Secondly, I believe that respect has to be earned based on an individual act or behaviour, and not on having participated in a historic event and/or being part of a group, organisation or any other entity.

Therefore, a Swiss soldier doesn't automatically earn more respect than a Syrian.
 
First of all, who claimed that soldiers and veterans deserve more respect than other strata of society?

Secondly, I believe that respect has to be earned based on an individual act or behaviour, and not on having participated in a historic event and/or being part of a group, organisation or any other entity.

Therefore, a Swiss soldier doesn't automatically earn more respect than a Syrian.

I appreciate your thoughts, but, I think I you need to think about this more. If a person was a Nazi, that says something about them. Its an automatic ding in their level of respect deserved, because they supported such evil, whether intentionally or as a dupe, and both ways I think is fair to dish out an automatic negative. The only way out of it would be if they joined the Nazis to subvert them, but honestly, who did that? If we were entertain such supremely rare cases in life, treating all people like Nazis as potential actually good spies and sabateurs, we would be complete fools and never get anywhere. If you meet one hundred Skinheads and 100 KKK members, how are you going to sort the infiltrators? And while you are at it, the rest get a free pass to walk all over you and everyone around you.

I am no fan of presumption, but there is never enough evidence floating around to live without presumptions. Its a sad fact, but no less true and no fixing it.

So back to Syrian soldiers: All current members of the Syrian armed forces are participating in a bloody crackdown on the people of Syria in some capacity, even if its just as a cook for the soldiers.

First of all, who claimed that soldiers and veterans deserve more respect than other strata of society?

Ask an American. I predict that 8 out of 10 random Americans will answer that they do, that one should start from a position of rather high respect and only work your way back given extremely bad behavior.
 
I understand your point of view and agree on the predicament of presumptions, but what about Syrian soldiers that were drafted? Would it be the only ethically right thing for them to defect and thereby endanger the lives of their families? The same applies to soldiers who served in the German Wehrmacht or the Imperial Japanese Army. Not everyone is born a hero.

In your view, does a Syrian defector deserve respect? What about defectors who join radical Islamist factions, do they still earn respect?

For some reason though I don't feel the same about Japanese SDF soldiers, although I cannot think of a logical reason why. Every one of them joined up of their own free will. I guess I question their motives for some reason. Somehow I don't think its all about defending Japan.

I guess in many countries being member of the armed forces is a 9-to-5 job of sorts. I had to serve for a year, and after boot camp, it was exactly that, actually a 7:30 to 16:30 routine occasionally interrupted by weapon drills and flag salutes. At the end of the day you walked home like a salaryman.
 
In my opinon, I'd say know - not all of them are good and honest with their jobs. 😊 They really deserve a handful of respect from me, but at least not all of them because not all of them are good soldiers, not even all vets are good as well. :eek:
 
I understand your point of view and agree on the predicament of presumptions, but what about Syrian soldiers that were drafted? Would it be the only ethically right thing for them to defect and thereby endanger the lives of their families? The same applies to soldiers who served in the German Wehrmacht or the Imperial Japanese Army. Not everyone is born a hero.

I am beginning to appreciate how the fine points of this topic can get lost down a rabbit hole. Please understand I am not trying to "stick it to you" when I say this because I was forgetting myself. But the point is automatic respect, not just respect. Of course I do afford leeway to those who have their backs up against the wall. But it gets pretty sticky because you cannot tell who really did have their backs up against that wall. I have no idea what sort of danger people's families were in for them refusing to join really. And its easy to say and easy to assume that all the above would put their families in danger. But, I note that when Rommel turned on Hitler, his family was not gone after. I have to wonder whose families were ever in danger really.

In your view, does a Syrian defector deserve respect? What about defectors who join radical Islamist factions, do they still earn respect?

A defector deserves automatic respect I think. If they join radical Islamist factions instead, well, its a hard call. I don't know which is the lesser evil in Syria right now. I only know both are evil. Therefore the defector comes out clean in most cases.



I guess in many countries being member of the armed forces is a 9-to-5 job of sorts. I had to serve for a year, and after boot camp, it was exactly that, actually a 7:30 to 16:30 routine occasionally interrupted by weapon drills and flag salutes. At the end of the day you walked home like a salaryman.

Soldiers in peacetime deserve automatic respect I think, so long as the peace has been going on long enough. But, it has to be said that if they stay in the armed forces for and during wars of aggression, they will lost that respect.

As for your service, it depends on where you are from. Where are you from Thomas?

If I had to serve in the U.S. armed forces in my late teens or mid-twenties, I probably would have. What can I say? In that respect I was NOT brought up properly. If I had served, I would hang my head in shame about it today.
 
I can admire a soldier with a mercenary mindset who does it all for gain, because he is sufficiently intelligent and detached not to be brainwashed by all sorts of propaganda, but I can't commend the myopic fools who get killed and slaughter for actors that misrepresent their intentions and and spew rancid propaganda. As for respect... I don't do respect, as a matter of policy. Respect is a tool for people to tell you what to do through the use of implied normative statements.
 
I am beginning to appreciate how the fine points of this topic can get lost down a rabbit hole. Please understand I am not trying to "stick it to you" when I say this because I was forgetting myself. But the point is automatic respect, not just respect.

Sorry, I should have read the thread title. I did not mean to derail your topic.

A defector deserves automatic respect I think. If they join radical Islamist factions instead, well, its a hard call. I don't know which is the lesser evil in Syria right now. I only know both are evil. Therefore the defector comes out clean in most cases.

As this is about automatic respect, I have to restate my first post: I believe no one, not even Mother Theresa, deserves automatic respect.

As for your service, it depends on where you are from. Where are you from Thomas?

I hold Austrian nationality, but my family is scattered all over. I had "respect" for the Austrian UN contingent, who served in the buffer zone between Syria and Israel, but they've been withdrawn just recently due to the civil war, quite disappointing.

I can admire a soldier with a mercenary mindset who does it all for gain, because he is sufficiently intelligent and detached not to be brainwashed by all sorts of propaganda, but I can't commend the myopic fools who get killed and slaughter for actors that misrepresent their intentions and and spew rancid propaganda. As for respect... I don't do respect, as a matter of policy. Respect is a tool for people to tell you what to do through the use of implied normative statements.

I can subscribe to that, but I am not quite sure about the difference between admiration and respect.
 
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Sorry, I should have read the thread title. I did not mean to derail your topic.

You don't make such mistakes often enough for me to take issue. And English is not even your first language!

As this is about automatic respect, I have to restate my first post: I believe no one, not even Mother Theresa, deserves automatic respect.

In theory I agree. In reality I think it gets cumbersome and I am not sure if it would be worth it in the end, if everyone had such a policy. Frankly, I just don't think enough of humanity has the intelligence to be up to the task. But again I say, I am not sure what the result would be.

I hold Austrian nationality

Curve ball! Man, so many ins and outs knowing that! On the one hand I want to deny you automatic respect because I know you can easily claim conscientous objector status and get out serving with the Austrian Armed Forces. But on the other hand, I don't know of anything I can say against the Austrian Armed Forces since 1945 except to say that they, as all militaries, are militaries! But admitting the realities of this world though, I cannot begrudge anyone for having a military that has only been used for self-defense and peace keeping missions. And really, any military that so easily allows conscientious objectors is head and shoulders above other militaries in their politics. But still, basically service is mandatory, yes?

I guess the outcome is to start from a position of automatic respect and go from there. I cannot see how you Thomas have done anything to lose any of that respect here. In fact you have done nothing but justify it.
 
I can subscribe to that, but I am not quite sure about the difference between admiration and respect.

I see that distinction in the fact that admiration is 'freely given', in a sense. Nobody has any control over it. There are just people who are such that you cannot help but admire them, perhaps even aspire to be like them. Respect, on the other hand, is something that society expects your to provide. You ought to respect x based on y preference/bias of your society. It is a nebulous thing, but I feel that respect is tied to a certain type of conduct, let's call it 'respectful conduct', whereas admiration is simply a feeling that might or might not influence your behaviour. If you're a soldier and you have much admiration for an enemy commander who is known to treat his subordinates well and promote their interests in as much as possible, you are likely to admire him, but you are also likely to kill him if called upon to do so and given the opportunity, when such are your orders by your superiors. Perhaps you won't, but there are no rules, just plain admiration.
 
That's a little difficult for me to answer, actually. On one hand, I've got to agree that people shouldn't automatically be given respect without a little evaluation. One thing I absolutely HATE is when soldiers expect people to respect them more because of their service. Them going into the military, for whatever reason, was not MY choice, so I have very little to no respect to douchey narcissists who think that the world owes them something. On top of that, who is to say that they joined because they're patriots who want nothing more than to throw themselves in front of the innocent civilians of their country? Being in the military is a job at the end of the day, albeit NOT a normal one. The military (in America, at least) offers ridiculously good benefits to those who give their time, and serves as a nearly perfect avenue for people who are financially backed into a corner.


On the other hand, I do have respect for those who don't expect anything in return for their service, and for much more than just the fact that they could have been deployed and put in harm's way. I can respect any humble person who has gone through the grueling work it takes to "survive" boot camp and submit to the sometimes harsh way of life in the military in the same way that I may respect the resolve and discipline of a great athlete. People like that are actually pretty inspiring to me.


Actually, in the last few months, I've decided that I'm going to join the Air Force for a few different reasons, and to be totally honest, I think it'll be weird for anyone to respect me more for that. I am, after all, just a regular person who has his reasons to join. No one chose this path for me, and any hardship I come across along the way will be something that I understood and consciously decided to risk by joining.
 
Since we sometimes need...............

military , police and fire to protect us and they do come in handy at times I think you can agree; I figure it best not to make them feel unwanted . If no one wanted to do those jobs because everyone hated/disrespected their profession , we might have problems. I joined the Navy during the Vietnam war because at the time I did not want to go to college or run away to Canada. When the war became unpopular , people spit on us and called us baby killers no matter what branch of the service we were in. I tried to do a good job while in the service and stayed out of trouble. I didn't expect any special treatment or respect for my 4 years of duty , but it seemed unfair to be hated and looked down upon. Military duty and surviving boot camp and all the other crap done to you while serving does give us a bit of pride and respect for others who went through the same problems and did not desert or get a bad conduct discharge or run away to Canada.
I will admit , I reserve my respect by a persons actions I observe first hand and not so much on his past history.

Uncle Frank
 
but it seemed unfair to be hated and looked down upon.

But it wasn't. And I do all I can to have as little to do with people who served during the Vietnam war unless they are quite clear about opposition to meddling in Vietnam. Just by serving, the war was supported. I would have utmost respect for anyone who left the military in protest of the Vietnam war. The only way I can over-look the support of the military one gave by staying in, is if they were dead clear about their opposition to the war and refused to do anything remotely in more direct support, such as serve on an aircraft carrier from which strikes on Vietnam occurred. But I don't think its unfair to assume that anyone who served in the U.S. military at the time supported the war. Surely 99 percent did or they would have quit.


But any that actually set foot in Vietnam had better just admit that it was a complete mistake to be there or I have nothing to do with them.



Such an attitude of looking down on soldiers who served during wars of selfishness and aggression seems to have disappeared with the hippies though. And look what we got for it: Gulf War, Iraq War and Afghan War. If droves of soldiers would have up and quit and protest over these things, they simply could not have happened.

And in case you are wondering what problem I have with the Gulf War, none of it would have happened if Bush Sr. had indicated to Saddam Hussein that he would oppose the invasion of Kuwait. Every U.S. soldier involved was nothing more than a pawn in the Bush regime's game. Pathetic and sick. So many died for Bush's glory, particularly Kuwaitis and Iraqis. Even at the time I was just a college Sophomore opposed to that sham, wanting to puke on all the yellow ribbons on cars and trees. It was the real beginning of the disgust I feel with the U.S. government and the thralls in the population that led me to leave America for an anti-war country with relative ease.

I figure it best not to make them feel unwanted . If no one wanted to do those jobs because everyone hated/disrespected their profession , we might have problems.

I disagree. I have met plenty of people who love the idea of being in a war enough to endure any amount of disrespect to shoot and kill people and play with death toys. My hometown is chock full of sick males like that. They love war and they crave it. Protecting America was about the last thing on their minds except to use that as an excuse.
 
Mark of Zorro, I understand the concept of giving respect where it is deserved and I genuinely admire your attempt to do as such/staying true to it. Unfortunately, I cannot give any other impression of this kind of thing other than an American perspective. I'd also like to make clear that this is personal insight being shared.

I do agree with you that it is socially accepted (in the U.S.) to respect one who has served in the military, despite their exact involvement. (Examples include commercial services offering military discount and Memorial Day.) I disagree that showing respect is a mechanism to encourage others to enlist. It's simply common courtesy.

As far as I understand, you are careful about knowing certain points of a militant's situation before giving them respect (mainly what war they were involved in). Personally, I feel that judging how much respect a militant should receive based solely on what war they were involved in is flawed because there are many factors that may have been completely out of their control. To my understanding of situations of certain persons in my family, they were sent against their willingness/agreement to take part in Vietnam and "The War on Terror". When deployment comes, it comes and there is consequence when being against it. (Example being that when men were called for the Vietnam War, some fled to Canada in order to avoid deployment and the consequence of jail time for refusing to go, but we must keep in mind that not every man opposed to fighting, such as those men in my family, did not have the resources to flea to Canada or Mexico to escape that double edged sword.) I have come across those who have gone in disagreement and have come back scarred mentally and physically. There is a respect to be shown. Perhaps not in the parts they have been involved in to hurt another country (be it willingly or unwillingly), but in what they have been forced to endure. But of course, there is always another side to the same coin. I have also come across those who enjoy war for the sport of it and use it as a way to fill their curiosity of murder or other such disgusting activities, or who have lied about going to war in order to receive respect they seek.

There are angels and devils among a group. It is completely true. But while it is unfair to respect the devils of a general group, it is also unfair to disrespect/not give respect to the angels of that same general group.

As far as I'm concerned, it all goes down to common courtesy (as I stated before). I will show respect to one serving or who has served, but I also expect humility. If one boasts about serving then I am reluctant but will give respect at face value in order to keep peace.
 
Well, let me start by saying that I feel that every human being deserves some level of respect. That would include soldiers or vets, of course.

I might also accord a certain respect for their experience and ability. For instance, if I suddenly found myself in a combat or survival situation, and I was with a former soldier... I would probably respect their advice in situations that their training covered. Just like I would respect a doctor's opinions on healthcare, or a judge's opinions on law.

In my mind, being a soldier means that you've done a job that involved extensive combat and survival training, and may or may not have had to use that training. But it does mean that you probably know more about those things than the average person.

Now, I probably wouldn't give a soldier much more consideration than anyone else, outside of their area of experience. Now, I might be impressed by his achievements if he saved a lot of lives, or did something in particular. But it wouldn't just be his job by itself that impressed me.

However, while I don't accord soldiers much more respect than other people, I also don't accord them any less, even if they've followed orders that were horrible. I look at it like this. I wouldn't be disgusted with people who work at Wal-Mart because of the fact that many of the decisions of their management are basically human rights violations. I'm against them as a corporation, but I don't hold every individual working within that company responsible. Only the decision makers.

Same goes for the military. The guys in the Pentagon or the White House may make inappropriate decisions, and force the military to do awful things.

How I feel about a soldier who was put in this position, really depends on their character. If he/she acts like a hardened sociopath who feels like the orders were justified, and enjoyed mistreating people, I'll probably have very little respect for him/her.

If he/she disagreed with their orders but felt forced to follow them anyway, and seems to feel a sense of shame, I'll probably respect them and be understanding of what a tough position they were in morally, between the commands of a superior and their own moral compass. The Milgram Experiments are fairly good evidence of how most humans are hardwired to respect authority, so that could happen to any of us.
 
"Automatic respect" for a prior service individual is not acceptable. The nature of the individual's service record has to be taken into account. And it is in most reputable veteran's groups. If an individual served honorably, then maybe some sort of respect should be afforded that individual by some members of that particular individual's communtiy. And that is the key, the individual's community. This is a very local issue and any politician or other type that tries to throw it out as anything other than a very local issue is just trying to score brownie points. Conversely, any individual that tries to use this issue as a platform for forwarding social views outside of the local community is much like that politician noted in the previous sentence.

Now that is an answer related to the individual level, not the group level. The "group level" is a whole different matter. And then I would ask if anyone here is a life member of the RBL of the UK, the VFW of the US, or any of the other many veteran's groups in any nation. I note the RBL and the VFW because I know their membership screening is very strict.
 
They do deserve respect, but not because they are/were soldiers, they deserve respect because they are human. Now if they do something in civilian life of their own volition that is culturally unacceptable just as anyone else, then they shouldn't be respected until they can regain that respect.
 
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Respect is earned, never given...

A person who signs a blank check, for up to and including their life to protect others has performed an act that earns a hell of a lot of respect. Anyone that says otherwise is free to make such a statement, but only because someone else, like a soldier put their own life on the line to ensure that the slacker could speak as he or she would like to.
 
Soldiers is a mainly an occupation for young people who failed to get into college, who's the honour in that?

No, they don't deserve any respect. They get paid for doing their job, from my tax dollars.
 
Respect is earned, never given...

A person who signs a blank check, for up to and including their life to protect others has performed an act that earns a hell of a lot of respect. Anyone that says otherwise is free to make such a statement, but only because someone else, like a soldier put their own life on the line to ensure that the slacker could speak as he or she would like to.

Well said ... and completely true, no matter how much the pacifists bluster on.
 
Protect others? BY killing children and rape daughters. They are brainless testosterone filled red necks doing deeds for Western politicians.

Yeah RESPECT.
 
Respect is earned, never given...

A person who signs a blank check, for up to and including their life to protect others has performed an act that earns a hell of a lot of respect. Anyone that says otherwise is free to make such a statement, but only because someone else, like a soldier put their own life on the line to ensure that the slacker could speak as he or she would like to.


Could you just tell me the last time a soldier put his life on the line to protect my freedom of speech?

I have a feeling a good laugh is coming....
 
Could you just tell me the last time a soldier put his life on the line to protect my freedom of speech?

I have a feeling a good laugh is coming....

I'll answer your question – it would have been this morning while you were probably asleep, safe in your bed. Men and women at the many Jieitai and US Bases in Japan were already awake at work, ensuring YOU are protected.

If Japan is attacked today, if the big Earthquake happens, if a terrorist incident occurs, if a meteor lands in Yoyogi Park!! - they will put themselves in harm's way and put their lives on the line for you, the way of life you have in Japan, and as you enthusiastically exhibit; your freedom of speech.

Anyway, continue to laugh and bluster on if you so desire …. your freedom to do so is protected … whether you appreciate it or not.
 
What complete drivel. Dude, the JSDF is going to start a war over the Senkakus and make me a target.

Do you have any idea how completely needless to me the Senkakus are? But that son, is what they are protecting at the moment.

They are not protecting my freedom of speech. They are a massive part to the threat that could take it away.

As for terrorists, that is the job of police. Wake the hell up.

Earthquakes and meteors are not a threat to my freedom of speech, nor are soldiers necessary as disaster relief crews. I do have automatic respect for disaster relief crews and I would happily pay for more of them, rather than have to rely on people whose primary job is to kill, who then show up at a disaster like so many yakuza trying to put a smiley face on their usual activities of horror.

Plus you dodged the question really. Standing ready to protect my freedom of speech is not the same as actually doing it, and I asked you the last time they actually did it.

Your willful blindness is so profound, I did not laugh. I nearly cried.

Now go ahead and dodge again. You might learn something if you confront the actual question, and that might hurt your brain.
 
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