What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

could the universe began with complete zero.

Tsuyoiko

DON'T PANIC!
Joined
11 Mar 2005
Messages
3,060
Reaction score
165
Hmmm ☝
Have you ever considered that Inventions don't come because of sciance ?
A vewy quick example is Mr. Albert Einstein ... do you know what grades he had in school ? In particular in the field where he made his discovery ?
Thus you don't need sciance to invent.
Could you define what you mean when you use the word 'science'? From your comments I suspect you don't mean the same thing as most of the rest of us...
 

Nall-ohki

先輩
Joined
1 Nov 2006
Messages
342
Reaction score
10
Theoretical question:

If the universe will continue to exist forever, is there even a reason to believe it ever began?

Time is a subject on which we have only a limited understanding. We don't really know what it is, or how it behaves except in limited circumstances (and some very interesting ones as well).

People often mistake arguments about the big bang to say that the universe "began" at the big bang, but that's not really part of the theory.

All the big bang model states is the idea that at some time in the past, all matter in the universe was concentrated at a point, which then expanded rapidly outward, giving us the cosmological layout we observe.

We really don't know what came before, whether there was a "before", or whether "before" really has any meaning when it comes to this event. It's like asking how many yards worth of unicorn giggles you can throw; the question may not have any meaning.

Our current mathematical and physical models can't really take us to that point, and thus cannot be described.

True, there are some problems with the model (as there are with every model), but very few people in science disagree with it, and no current model predicts the events we see in the universe as well as it does.
 

karlyboo

後輩
Joined
14 Nov 2007
Messages
147
Reaction score
13
Theoretical question:
If the universe will continue to exist forever, is there even a reason to believe it ever began?
Time is a subject on which we have only a limited understanding. We don't really know what it is, or how it behaves except in limited circumstances (and some very interesting ones as well).
People often mistake arguments about the big bang to say that the universe "began" at the big bang, but that's not really part of the theory.
All the big bang model states is the idea that at some time in the past, all matter in the universe was concentrated at a point, which then expanded rapidly outward, giving us the cosmological layout we observe.
We really don't know what came before, whether there was a "before", or whether "before" really has any meaning when it comes to this event. It's like asking how many yards worth of unicorn giggles you can throw; the question may not have any meaning.
Our current mathematical and physical models can't really take us to that point, and thus cannot be described.
True, there are some problems with the model (as there are with every model), but very few people in science disagree with it, and no current model predicts the events we see in the universe as well as it does.

I believe you're describing Occam's Razor- we can't know so don't worry about explaining it, it's not important.
 

Annubis

Tokyo and Beyond
Joined
30 Nov 2007
Messages
206
Reaction score
12
The conscious universe

YAY!!! I think Dimitri is right!

Where did all these ideas come from. What are we trying to prove... Are we all just fumbling about and tripping over ourselves.
Some of the most intersting discoveries come from mistakes. Random information and sheer noise is the most interesting thing I can think of, because you never know what you will get in the end... will it be a flutter or a dead silence.

I think that scientists are curious children who are trying to make sense of the universe we live in.
The best way to live is with the eyes of a child... Moody Blues.

See Mars recently? Why is it called Mars? Oh... there is a reason...
Why did we call an addition, positive? Isn't positive a word we use for the way we think?

But I don't think we should be wondering these kinds of things to figure out if the universe begane at absolute zero, unless we want to use our imagination where anything is possible.

To really think scientificly we need charts and textbooks... :( I left my physics textbook in Canada... only have elctronics with me:)
 

Sono Ike

yaoi lova
Joined
19 Dec 2007
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Hmmm
Have you ever considered that Inventions don't come because of sciance ?
A vewy quick example is Mr. Albert Einstein ... do you know what grades he had in school ? In particular in the field where he made his discovery ?
Thus you don't need sciance to invent.

O well i guess i will go in read only mode from now on
I don't feel welcome in this section.

ツ?環?? In EVERYTHING, including your beloved Albert Einstein, there is a duality of things. Ok??? -sounds retarded, gomeeen!-
So, in ALL the invents of the human history there is a part creative and a part of sciance. Yes, including Albert Einstein. If not... how do his theorys became soooooo important in the sciance??
-I'm assuming that, for you, 'sciance' means numbers, theorys, logic... things like that...-
 

Annubis

Tokyo and Beyond
Joined
30 Nov 2007
Messages
206
Reaction score
12
Well... if you think of the scientific method, there's your answer to what science is.

You have hypothesis, theory, and law through systematic experimentation. Hypothesis is always fun!
 

MadamePapillon

Fear my Niftyness
Joined
1 Jul 2007
Messages
506
Reaction score
31
If the universe will continue to exist forever, is there even a reason to believe it ever began?

Everything has a beginning, something cannot just appear from nothing. And, similarly, nothing lasts forever. Planets, stars, our whole universe is in a constant process of creation, destruction, and recycling, so while the universe probably wont last forever it wont disappear, it will only become something else.

A question that's plagued mankind for ages is the creation of the universe simply because we know that something can't come from nothing so that means there must have always been something out there that contributed to the universes creation but, if so, what created that...and so on and so forth. It's a neverending cycle, hence the need for religion to simplify it into something that everyone can understand. "We were created by such and such god, they are all powerful, the end." But even so, what created god?

There is so many vast theorys about the creation of our universe, the possibility of multiple universes, the places outside out own universe, it boggles the mind. In the end we are really on a quest to find the source of all creation, whatever or whomever that may be.

Sorry if I repeated what someone else has already said, I didn't fully read through all the posts.
 

Annubis

Tokyo and Beyond
Joined
30 Nov 2007
Messages
206
Reaction score
12
If you really want to know how limited our conscious experience is, just think about all of the information that only our 5(human specific) senses translate into usable information. About 90% of the information that we sense is discarded. I mean, bats use sonar to see and fish see infrared. If we could see infrared, would we see ghosts? Would that change the way we see life the universe and everything? This is just a small example of how limited we are, and how vast the universe's existance is compared to ours.
 

Homerduff

ケビン
Joined
2 Jan 2007
Messages
365
Reaction score
9
I guess that universe has always existed and there has always been materia throughout space. It's hard for us humans to imagine because in our life everything has a beginning and an end. We can't imagine what 'infinity' really is. Many scientists agree that the universe is never-ending so why should there be a beginning.

And I absolutely agree with Annubis. There are many things out there that we still don't - and maybe never - know.
 

Satorian

devil's advocate
Joined
17 Apr 2004
Messages
154
Reaction score
5
To quote Hawking: "Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?"

Why everything? Why anything?

Those are indeed questions that have literally kept me awake for many a night. It feels like trying to comprehend them, coupled with the total and utter inaptitude to truly imagine and grasp any alternative to our universe/ontology (like a perfect void for example), I arrive at this conceptual singularity where everything seems possible and nothing unacceptable. It drives me nuts.

But, at least it instills a monumental sense of awe and wonder and humility in me, sprinkling a bit of fairy dust onto life one tends to efficiently and mindlessly brush away in everyday turmoils.

Fantastic being here, innit? :)
 

Mavrek

先輩
Joined
23 Dec 2007
Messages
107
Reaction score
2
I have no idea a bout it . In my opinion the geographic researcher exactly can tell about this.I am sorry for this and hope you wouldn't mind it.Thank you.
 

Satorian

devil's advocate
Joined
17 Apr 2004
Messages
154
Reaction score
5
But that's not a very satisfying conclusion. The questions still remains: "How can it be that there is anything at all? Why is it that there is anything at all, if by all indications it would be easier for nothing to exist?"

It may be that universe just "is", but that doesn't make it any less incomprehensible to me. It's the one fundamental question where all laws, theories and assumptions seem to break down.
 

Nall-ohki

先輩
Joined
1 Nov 2006
Messages
342
Reaction score
10
It may be that universe just "is", but that doesn't make it any less incomprehensible to me. It's the one fundamental question where all laws, theories and assumptions seem to break down.

It's true that it's fairly unsatisfying that the universe may just "be", without any explanation, but I ask what the alternative would be.

If the universe didn't exist, it wouldn't. If it did, it did. It's a binary question, and causality doesn't necessarily have a place in the question.
 

Satorian

devil's advocate
Joined
17 Apr 2004
Messages
154
Reaction score
5
It feels like trying to comprehend them, coupled with the total and utter inaptitude to truly imagine and grasp any alternative to our universe/ontology (like a perfect void for example), I arrive at this conceptual singularity where everything seems possible and nothing unacceptable.

I'll quote myself there. I can't imagine an alternative.

Yes, perhaps even the dualistic, binary mode of viewing existence as something given or not, might not hold there.

That's the fascinating thing about it. It seems utterly incomprehensible, which I consider fantastic. :)
 

MadamePapillon

Fear my Niftyness
Joined
1 Jul 2007
Messages
506
Reaction score
31
I've always thought that the one purpose (except for humans of course) that most things on our own planet seem to have is to help keep other species alive. Our world (not including humans) is an almost perfect balance in which the plants exist to keep the planet healthy and to feed the herbivores, which in turn exist to feed the carnivores which in turn exist to eat the herbivores so they don't eat all the plants and so on and so forth....

That's how I imagine the universe could have a purpose. If you believe that the universe isn't everything in existance but a part of something larger, that our own universe is existing to keep other universes (or possibly somthing else) alive and vice versa in a cosmic symbiotic relationship.

If you think about it, what is the purpose of anything but to ensure the continued survival of everything. 😌 I hope that makes sense.
 

Satorian

devil's advocate
Joined
17 Apr 2004
Messages
154
Reaction score
5
I've always thought that the one purpose (except for humans of course) that most things on our own planet seem to have is to help keep other species alive. Our world (not including humans) is an almost perfect balance in which the plants exist to keep the planet healthy and to feed the herbivores, which in turn exist to feed the carnivores which in turn exist to eat the herbivores so they don't eat all the plants and so on and so forth....

That's how I imagine the universe could have a purpose. If you believe that the universe isn't everything in existance but a part of something larger, that our own universe is existing to keep other universes (or possibly somthing else) alive and vice versa in a cosmic symbiotic relationship.

If you think about it, what is the purpose of anything but to ensure the continued survival of everything. 😌 I hope that makes sense.

And what explains the existence of purpose? How come there is such a thing as purpose? How come there is anything at all? :)
 

Chi65

Sempai
Joined
14 Nov 2007
Messages
951
Reaction score
21
Well, to come back to Moebius:
Möbius strip - Wikipedia

But the idea is more related to the ying yang image of the east, hey, aren't you interested in such views?
Yin and yang - Wikipedia

Just imagine the strip also to be an 8, but basically 2 poles, also as for infinity.

Or why not like Escher as a 3, could be many more corners/poles from there:
LW437-1.jpg


Insofar there is no beginning nor end, but its only a flat image, while a ying yang simply works also scientifcally, by seeing two poles (or more) that constantly change and have everything in it.

From there it is only a small step towards multiple universes, thus see our beloved Mr. Michio Kaku, once we are into Japan, and why not also America?:
Michio Kaku - Wikipedia

now more complicated, but not without the same basic idea (anyhow, he can live on that).

Or read about multiverses directly:
Multiverse - Wikipedia

In any case, you may have to rethink our western limited perception of time over again. There is the key.

Its not linear, even if we wish it to be. Also the chinese I ching (book of changes) has fine explanations, once you know, what to look for, because it is very well based on the same idea of constant change, yet still center there, at the same time. They have marvelous explanations about multiverses even at some places, no joke!

Because if you see time like a moebius loop, then you have it all at the same time, also(!) at the same time constantly changing, as we know from ying yang (very well understood in general!).

You even can endlessly go from nothing to something and "back" etc.
and outside is also inside etc.
That also matches the idea of infinity, and was surely meant this way, thus the 8 for it.

Just some food for thoughts, I cannot give a whole lecture or lesson about, but it was a theme for me for long, also in arts and installations (and my father was a natural scientist!). And I had the pleasure of getting special help from a japanese friend for a little animation model about time. He was the first one, who also felt free to play around with it, no problem in understandings for the first time. It was as much understood by many other cultures, even by sheiks and medicinmen etc.
While most westerners got dizzy far too early, but on science forums, it was pretty well understood these days, athough in their own language.

Its all there, one only has to realise it. And its easier than some think.
For example: everyone is a universe. . .to give a hint ;-)

It does not give an answer to any how comes though, it simply is.
 

MadamePapillon

Fear my Niftyness
Joined
1 Jul 2007
Messages
506
Reaction score
31
And what explains the existence of purpose? How come there is such a thing as purpose? How come there is anything at all? :)

Lol, if I knew that....well, I don't even know what I would do.

I think I just lost a few million brain cells 😌
 
Top Bottom