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conjugating adjectives - confusion

Lufos

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みなさん、こんにちは.

I am currently trying to learn how to use/conjugate adjectives. Therefore, i looked at several sources (including jref homepage), but got contradicting information. I would like to share my findings and maybe you guys can help me to clear up the confusion.
Ok here we go using some sample sentences...

i-adjectives:

before noun:

samui otenki (desu)
samui otenki deshita
samui otenki ja nai
samui otenki ja nakatta

after noun:

otenki wa samui (desu)
otenki wa samukatta
otenki wa samukunai
otenki wa samukunakatta

na-adjectives:

before noun:

kantan na tesuto desu/da
kantan na tesuto deshita/datta
kantan na tesuto ja nai
kantan na tesuto ja nakatta

after noun:

tesuto wa kantan desu/da
tesuto wa kantan deshita/datta
tesuto wa kantan ja nai
tesuto wa kantan ja nakatta

Are these sample sentences correct? Did I understand it correctly?

Contradicting information I found:

a) you must conjugate an i-adj. only when it is used at the end of a sentence vs. you can conjugate the adj. and then add te noun after it.
e.g.: samui otenki deshita vs. samukatta otenki

b) when using na-adj. you need to use na and then the noun + conjugated desu vs. you need to put the conjugated desu between the adj. and the noun
e.g.: kantan na tesuto deshita vs. kantan deshita tesuto

Thank you in advance

Best Regards
Lufos
 

Timelyn

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Regarding a) :

I understand that it depends on what you are trying to express. For example, if your cup is the red cup or the blue one (discriminating) vs if your cup is red or blue (describing).

Senpais please validate me! LOL
 

Timelyn

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Regarding a) :

I understand that it depends on what you are trying to express. For example, if your cup is the red cup or the blue one (discriminating) vs if your cup is red or blue (describing).

Senpais please validate me! LOL
LoL ok, I read a) again and I see this wasn't what he was talking about.

Either way what I said is actually something I struggle with a bit still. So now that I brought it up, can you confirm that that is the difference between the "before noun" sentences and the "after noun" sentences Lufos talked about?
 

Lufos

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Thank you for your reply.
Yes, regarding a) I meant how to use an i-adj. atributively. So not the difference between attributive (before noun) and predicative (after noun) adjectives. Either way you need to conjugate the adj., but do attributive i-adjectives get conjugated directly (samukatta <noun>), or does the "desu" get conjugated (samui <noun> deshita)?

As far as I understand it, there must always be a verb at the end of a japanese sentence, so that samukatta <noun> should not be valid.
 

Toritoribe

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"Samukatta <noun>" is vaild. This is a noun phrase, not a sentence. "Samukatta" works as an attributive/a modifying clause here, just like the relative clause in English. Polite forms of adjectives can't be used in modifying clauses. This is also applied to na-adjectives.

samui tenki: cold weather
samukatta tenki: weather that was cold
samukunai tenki: not-cold weather/weather that is not cold
samukunakatta tenki: weather that was not cold

kantanna tesuto: easy test
kantandatta tesuto: test that was easy
kantan ja nai tesuto: uneasy test/test that is not easy
kantan ja nakatta tesuto: test that was not easy
 

Lufos

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Thank you for your answer.

So, if you use adjectives (both i and na) attributively you must not put a conjugated <desu> at the end? Thus making "samui otenki deshita" and "kantan na tesuto deshita" invalid statements?
That is exactly the contradicting kind of information i meant. :) I learned, that i-adj. must only be conjugated when they are at the end of a sentence.

Also it is not correct to use polite forms such as deshita and desu when using attributive adjectives? So it should be datta instead of deshita? Polite forms for predicative adjectives are ok? Such in " tesuto wa kantan deshita"?

Did I understand your explanations correctly?
 
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Lufos

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Ah, I think I am starting to understand. Let me create some sample sentences to check, if I got it right...

i-adjective

yesterday it [was not cold].
kinou wa [samukunakatta] (desu).

yesterday the weather [was not cold].
kinou wa tenki ga [samukunakatta] (desu).

yesterday was no [cold-weather].
kinou wa [samui tenki] ja nakatta.

yesterday [was no cold weather].
kinou wa [samukunakatta tenki] deshita/datta.

na-adjective


yesterday it [was not easy].
kinou wa [kantanjanakatta] (desu).

yesterday the test [was not easy].
kinou wa tesuto ga [kantanjanakatta] (desu).

yesterday was no [easy test].
kinou wa [kantanna tesuto] ja nakatta.

yesterday [was no easy test].
kinou wa [kantanjanakatta tesuto] deshita/datta.

I hope this is at least close to being correct. :)
 

Toritoribe

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I used your example of the i-adjective to explain how the adjective works attributively, but actually, "tenki ga samui" or "samui tenki" is not really used. Try again with "muzukashii tesuto" difficult test for an example of i-adjectives.
As for the second example, "kinou wa" is the topic, not the subject. "Kinou wa kantanna tesuto ja nakatta" means "it was not an easy test yesterday", for instance. Plus, "kantan ja nakatta testo deshita" is not usually used. "Kantan ja nai testo deshita" is more common, as same as "It was an uneasy test" vs. "It was a test that was not easy" in English.

Haven't you learned hiragana/katakana yet, by the way?
 
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