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Christ and Japan

I apologize for the ambiguity, the antecedent was 'have peace in ones heart'.

This misconception is that of Christianity's (since that is the basic focus at the moment, rather than other religions) giving automatic, full validity as historical and natural fact all the percepts, ideas, cultural thought, and claims put into writing by the earlier and latter religious leaders of Judaism and then Christianity. It's something that goes back a long way, and for a long time, was in controling circles--the scribes and priests of Judaism, the leaders of the groups in working Christian groups, the Roman Catholic Church.

I know this is not going into detail, but here may not be the location for that. It is under discussion in other threads, however, in the 'Serious Discussions' area. I could put in a little more detail here, perhaps, if you were really insistent (sp?) since no few others, at most, are talking here now.

Gotta run for now. See you 'round Blue_Suede_Shoes :)
 
I happened to read the statistics collected by the government on the number of people and incidents of suicide. More people killed themselves than ever before in the last few years. For the case of women, Japanese women were ranked 2nd worst.

Many people in their 20s and 30s suicided, some even in teens. The reason of their decision was mainly the stress they carry on everyday.

It was only some months ago, I happened to read an article on Yahoo Japan. It was another case by a high school student. His writing on a paper said he was tired of studying. I bet many people in the U.S. wouldn't be able to understand this. The pressure in the society pushes you to live there. It was one of my main reasons that I chose to live in the U.S. at least for a while.

Japanese people need peace in their hearts. A peace that is not obtained by studying and getting degree at schools. Money they try to earn so hard is a temporal peace to them while they can spend it. After all gone, they will realize that they lost peace.

Well, a prophecy was delivered already. Hokkaido and Okinawa are the key islands in Japan for a major revival. We will just wait and see what God has for Japanese people. As long as they hold 窶戲窶佚 as their one of top virtues, good things will come.
 
Tonysoong said:
The Japanese nation has been and still is too nationalistic to attain peace in their heart. Secular achievements serve national pride better than anything else. You can hardly imagine a person full of nationalistic ambitions and aspirations cherishing a religion that preaches peace and harmony.

I don't think shinto or things like that should be considered as religion. Perhaps primitive superstition is a better terminology. I mean no offense. It's largely the same thing with China.

Individualism and humanism need to take the place of collectivism/nationalism before Christ's salvation is accessible.

What's wrong with a nation being nationalistic Soong ? Secular achievements is always a good thing along with national pride in any country !

You have a gross mis-understanding of Japan in the context of Japan being nationalistic. As a matter of fact, Japan lacks nationalism and this may be why so many people commit suicide because of a lack of national identity, just look at the young generation, trying telling them about nationalism, do you think they even care ? What you see on your T.V. is Prime Minister Koizumi's repeated visits to Yasukuni shrine but by no means, is this representative of the Japanese peoples. Most Japanese people have little to no knowledge of Yasukuni and how it related to history at all ! So, when you and others make blanket statements about Japan being or becoming nationalistic you are dead wrong !
 
Evolution

I read alot of interesting opinions on this thread and agree with most.

I think religion impedes the growth and development of human beings to a point. Sure, religion has had its place in our history as a unifying force but times have changed, and I think it's time we change with the times !

Religion now has succeeded in dividing us and creating a wall of fundamentalist , I don't care what your opinion is, kind of attitude in the world. "If you are not for us then you are against us," G.W. Bush exclaimed which sent a clear message to the world; we don't care what you think about the war, you are with us or not and if you are not with us then you are our enemy.

Christians have been some of the greatest murderes on the face of the earth from a historical and cultural point of view. I remember Alan Booth( travel writer in Japan )mentioned in an interview that men and women used to bathe together until the missionary's came and condemned this act as lewd and then for the most part people changed here.

I was sickened to hear that.
 
mctojo,

I don't quite understand how religion impedes people from growth--i find that religion is a wonderful means for spiritual growth! it has opened me up to so much love from God and has increased my own ability to be a loving person to others.

i think that you are now the one making blanket statements about religion--are you sure that it is religion that makes other people become murderers, or is it merely that the person is associated with a specific religion and that person happens to be a murderer? consider this scenario: a person sees a black person rob a store. does that mean that all black people rob stores? no! it just means that that individual chose to rob a store--it's not based at all on that person's race. after all, there would be no such thing as race if racism didn't exist.

just because dubya is known to be Christian doesn't mean that the quote you posted earlier is a Christian concept--it's his personal philosophy.

if you look specifically at Christianity, the primary teaching is one of love. in fact, most religions have a form of "do unto others as you would have done unto you"--the Golden Rule. now, i wonder why religions would adopt such a concept if there were no seeking for universality and commonality with other people?

you say that religion is a thing of the past, but i disagree completely--religion has a continuing role in the world. why would there be a God who sent His only Son to earth and allow Him to be crucified for the sake of removing the sin of the world? i'm not asking you to believe that statement, i'm just asking you to consider the concept behind it--a God of love, and that it is not religion that is continually dividing people, because after all there are few religions that say that we will force you to believe what we believe. a Christian may believe that if you don't believe in God or Jesus that you will not be admitted into Heaven, but it does not mean that a Christian will actually *force* a person to convert (besides, that can't actually happen--a forced conversion to Christianity--the person has to actually believe in the precepts of Christianity to be truly converted).

i understand your frustration with the fragmented nature of the modern world, but it has always been fragmented in ways. please consider what you are saying before you do make a blanket statement lest you be a hypocrite.
 
What more can you expect from a Christian? Or a Muslim? Or a Jew? The three religions are very fascists in their ideal (no offense but its true) and the only reason why it is still around is because these religions are so closeminded. When you are closeminded you tend not to gain knowledge of other point of views and develop a passion because you believe that you know everything and the truth. I hope one day these outdated religions will become the status of mythology, historic perspective, ect. That is not say that the Bible or Quran does not have any good teachings, but that is all they are. Teachings.

Although Japan has become largelly non-religious, they still hold true to their tradition. Europe on the other hand is a non-religious area of the world that lost most of its tradition. And its not hard to see why. Christianity has caused so much death and destruction, and at the same time its primitive view on life is just too much to even keep as a tradition! Europe was far better before and after Christianity. Budo-Shinto philosophy is a far more elegant and true religion than the Abrahmaic fascist religions of the West. When I think about Japanese religion it feels almost mystical and real.
 
While I do not belong to any religions, I do think religions do fulfil a quota for happiness. If someone, for example, can feel extreme gratitude that God would send His son down to save them, and that they were just lucky to 'win' the lottery to eternal life, then they have great reason to be happy.

Happier people are more likely to be compassionate people. The underlying theme (ignoring some of the fundamentalists here) of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism is compassion.

Fundamentalist mindsets are not found only in religious structures, but in ideologies, and some causes as well. People within many disciplines are unwilling to be flexible, and hold strongly and unquestioningly to some teaching or idea.
 
I must agree with Revenant about her statement on fundamentalist attitudes (Revenant, etes-vous Quebecois? et d'ou revenez-vous, selon votre "handle". je m'excuse; je sais pas le mot en francais pour ce mot-la). Silverbackman, just because there are some people within a religion who take fundamentalist ideas and begin telling other people that those people are going to hell because they don't believe in God give the religion as a whole a bad reputation.
First of all, I know that what I will go on to say probably will have no effect on you, but I still must defend my religion for the sake of its defense. If you have noticed, in this forum, I have not once told another person what to believe, and yet those who are denouncing Christianity or other Abrahmaic religions, or religion in general for that matter, are the ones who have been extremely hostile towards other people in the forum.

I cannot speak for Judaism or Islam, but Christianity certainly is not close-minded as you say. The philosophy of Christianity as a whole is not to stop listening to other people, but to see if the words spoken by members from other religions can help us to better understand our own. I am saddened when people become so wrapped up in their own religion and self-righteousness that they cannot listen to other religious input. And I still believe that it is good for a person of faith to listen to the criticisms of that faith. However, only in an intellectual fashion is this criticism useful. If you were to enumerate your reasons for your disdain for Christianity, I would be pleased to discuss the matter with you in further depth.

You also label Christianity as being fascist--could you please expand on this idea? I don't quite understand how you mean this...

In addition, when you speak of Shinto and Buddhism in Japan, I think you should recall that it is not only nations where the Abrahmaic religions are predominant that have caused great destruction and death. I should remind you that Japan's invasion into China in the Rape of Nanjing was a massacre, and it's attack on Pearl Harbor on the United States was fairly horrible. I'm not stating that things like the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan were not horrible, but they were also used with great hesitance, whereas Nanjing was performed (one can argue) with a considerable amount of forethought and intention.

As far as Buddhism is concerned (I cannot speak about Shinto beliefs because I don't know anything about those beliefs), I really find that religion, despite the amount of talk about emptying oneself and forgetting about the "I," very self-concerned in that the meditations are done with the whole concept of removing that "I," therefore the subject of the meditation is "I". Christian prayer does not exclude the "I" concept either, but there is still an enormous amount of prayer focused on surrendering oneself to God, and therefore to be an instrument of His will, regardless of personal will. As Christians, we are supposed to ask God to use us as empty vessels for His Holy Spirit. I spent a great amount of time practicing Buddhism, and searching in general for some kind of religious categories that suited me (and trust me I looked at a lot of different things, including atheism) before I converted to Catholicism, and I feel qualified to make this remark.

Please, let me know your criticisms, but please articulate them in a way that is conducive to discussion, debate and respect of others at least as fellow humans, so that we may have an interesting and respectful dialogue.
 
I'm a male, but I know the avvie throws a lot of people off. I know my handlename is french for, one who returns from the dead. But it is just a synonym for ghost, or phantom that I looked up. When I first hit up forums, I was stuck for a name, and simply decided to go with one of my old nicknames in real life (ghost/phantom), but then on second thought, I decided they didn't have any sort of neat ring to them, so thereafter I have used either Wraith or Revenant at all the forums I frequent. I don't speak French, sorry.

Anyways, besides a few theologies that seem quite impossible to put together, and a couple laws that I could never figure out how they would fit into the law of love, I think the philosophy of Christianity is excellent, for anyone who actually studies and puts together how a Christian is to conduct himself/herself. The minority of vocal and wrong Fundamentalists are the people who quite often make National news, and general history. I don't think it's fair to base an opinion of something off of what one only reads in the National news or general histories.

Personally, I quite like Buddhism. Christians search for God, while Buddhists search for the Dharma. Buddhism is a religion about spiritually growing as an indvidual, and that should translate into compassionate actions naturally. Anyways, I digress, as this is a topic about Christ and Japan. If you wish to find more info on meditations as studied by neuroscience, they are in a thread I started in this same subforum.

Lastly, I don't think any belief system can claim to have a morally superior history. Buddhists became too involved in politics here, carrying weapons and marching to battles. Christians and Muslims were involved in a lot of wars, and as much as atheists would like to say, but not atheism. Communism, and ideology that included a non-belief in God as part of their philosophy, has driven the Chinese and Soviets to the murder of millions of Muslims, Buddhists, and Christians. Convictions are a double edged sword.
 
Sorry, Rev. I took a quick glance at the avatar and didn't even really think about the fact that it doesn't necessarily indicate sex.

I didn't understand that bit about Buddhism before, even as much as I thought I was into it. I'm glad to have that misconception cleared. I'm also glad that there are more unclouded voices to listen to in this forum so that I can learn more. Thank you.
 
聖書妬教育

この方(イエスキリスト)以外には、だれによっても救いはありません。
世界中でこの御名のほかには、
私たちが救われるべき名としては、
どのような名も、
人間に与えられていないからです。」

http://kingdoman777.hp.infoseek.co.jp
 
むきょかいさん、すみませんけど、この記事が読めらないんですが。英語に反っていただけませんか。この日本語で書いてある記事はちょっと複雑すぎていますから。本当にすみません。僕は、日本語を読むのはまだ下手ですから。
 
Good morning there Blue_Suede_Shoes san !!

It's nice to talk to you again; and yes, I know I owe you a report about the concepts I hold about 'humankind in nature' and will get to that soon enough, (please give me some more time :sorry: )

Mukyokai san made just two posts, both identical, both with the link, and both on threads dealing with Christianity. I of course do not know the reality of the matter, but have a hunch that it's just a 'sale'--if you can catch my drift. Let's wait to see if any thing comes from that person again.

I would tend to question the concept of 'unclouded voices', as used in the context in which it had been framed, although I feel that I can understand the emotion involved in the intended communication.

You did some nice writing there Revanant chan ! 👍
The phrase about convictions being a double-edged sword could stand a little modifying, perhaps, just to reduce the level of absoluteness. Any strong, non-religious conviction about the value of 'human-love' (agape) in establishing peace in households, neighborhoods, cities, states, and nations--thus world wide, for example, may not fall under such a heading. (but in some oposite manner, perhaps it just may--if we were to use the sword metaphor as that which wipes out hatred.)

I enjoyed reading the thoughts you kind folks put out here. 👍 I'm still hanging out here from time to time, but am just so busy these days, and spend what little time I do have for posting, in the Serious Discussion area (it takes thinking time, and I'm slow, to boot) BUT I will get back to you Blue_Suede_Shoes about that; thank you for being so patient !!! See you all !! :)
 
Wow...first off, i'd like to say this has been a refreshing thread to read. On other boards, whenever a religious thread would start, it would end up with bashing and whatnot. In this thread what antagonism i've seen has been pretty mild, and everything has stayed pretty intelligent and mature.

I am a Christian, though by no means a fundamentalist. I'm really not much of one, i truly believe in Jesus Christ, that he died to save our soul, and that i will go to heaven when i die...but apart from that, i'm too consumed by other things to live my life for God. If i did, i would probably be a happier person (many of my friends are christians doing their best to live for God, and are some of the happiest people i know.) Now, seeing as this topic is about Christianity in japan, i'll give my two-cents worth.

From what i've heard, one of the reasons the percentage of christain japanese is so small is because they're scientifically minded. What do you generally hear from Christians? "you believe in evolution you go to hell!" and other close-minded statements. Isn't christianity about spreading the Gospel? Then why is it that so many statements coming from Christians drive away people rather than draw them in? Much Christianity shuns science in general and is very hypocritical. Take this for example:

From 8'th to 11'th grade i was enrolled in a private/Christian school run by a Baptist church. In 9'th grade i had physical science, which i suppose usually includes chemistry like ours did (sometimes our classes were waaaay different than normal schools). Anyway, in the chemistry portion of the class, we had to learn the periodic table. We took it for fact and had to know it for quizes and tests and whatnot. However, earlier in the year, our teacher had denounced the carbon dating process because it did not correctly label chemicals, or the whole thing is just made up. When it comes to the earth being 4 billion years old instead of 6 thousand science is wrong, but if the science at hand has no relation to the earth's age or evolution (and somehow an old earth automatically implies evolution), then it's fine.

I think that's why Japanese don't care for Christianity. Too many christians are narrow-minded and irrational. Not only do they make broad generalizations based on no facts, but when presented with scientific credibility they say it's wrong and biased. Many are greatly ignorant of science, and they are content staying that way. I think if we want to have a better chance of spreading Christianity we need to be more open to the scientific community, and even if we disagree with things, the first things out of our mouths shouldn't be "you're going to hell!" Rather, we should find more about their view and what led them to it, and then explain our views.
 
Mars Man, you are correct, 'a double edged sword' was not the right phrase to use. Better yet would've been just to say that convictions can be extremely beneficial to the practioner and those around him, or extremely detrimental.
VengefulRonin said:
Wow...first off, i'd like to say this has been a refreshing thread to read. On other boards, whenever a religious thread would start, it would end up with bashing and whatnot. In this thread what antagonism i've seen has been pretty mild, and everything has stayed pretty intelligent and mature.
This forum has an unusually high number of very levelheaded and intelligent members, a reason this forum remains one of my favorites.

A lot of Japanese view religion as a cause of wars, and I get a lot of students citing the Muslim terrorists, the Crusades, and their own time in history as devout Shintoists as support.

The few Japanese that claim Christianity are mostly just claiming it as their family's traditional religion, but that goes for all religions here. Most Buddhists, Christians, and Shintoists are all these in pretty much name only. The religion seems to be often determined by what their grandparents and parents were, and only determines which religion's funeral service they will get when they die. Most of them neither meditate, nor pray, nor attend any sort of religious service apart from the funeral and memorial services.
 
Ok so I think this topic has gone way off course. I to am christian and I think that there has been alot of misconception about the questions asked by ookamishi. So I'm going to go back to the first post and try to fix what everyone twisted around, and give everyone the more "Politically correct" view. First I would like to make a simple statement that whenever and where ever there is a discussion on christianity there is always the need for people to twist around what people say and arguing. For example:
Buntaro said:
--> You make it sound like Christianity is better than any other religion, and that there is something wrong with someone who decides to not be a Christian. I disagree.

.

Now to me that seems a bit harsh. I really think that his main objective in this post was to just find out what the current situation is on the christian religion in Japan. Now the statement of "I feel very sorry for people who do not have peace in their heart. I would like to help Japanese people-- and all people!" is not the sort of statement you want to say. But he did apologize for that. I believe that people to entitled to their own faith, same as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. To some people faith is a monumental part of their life, to others it's just a routine thing they do. It's all based on how you look at things. In every religious person's view they our right. Catholics think they our right, Christians think they our right, Mormons think they have the solution, etc. So I may say that your all going to hell because your not saved, but that's because that's the belief of my religion. Granted I would not be forward like that with somone because that's rude. the same goes with every other religion, Mormons believe in life after the grave yet they are not lashed out upon when they talk about their religion. It just strikes me that no matter where I'm at whenever someone brings up "Jesus, Christianity, heaven and hell" in a discussion it always turns into a heated debate about whose right and whose wrong. So in closing I think that Ookamishi had these simple questions. 1. What is the current situation with the christian religion in Japan. 2. Are there many christians in Japan. 3. Do people get a misconception of christianity in Japan. 4. If there are many christians in Japan are they actually doing the work of the Lord.

So yeah if you don't like what I said I'm sorry, if it rubbed you the wrong way. I just don't appreciate it when people put words in other people's mouths. So yeah anyways Later
 
Jcandres,

Thank you for trying to bring this thread back on-course. It is always helpful to have meaningful religious discussions, as long as they are meaningful.

I am a big advocate of ecumenicalism and religious plurality. I think the more the different religions can communicate, the better.

We do need to state the obvious -- you are Christian, while I am not. These types of discussions usually degrade into something undesireable, and I hope that does not happen here. Perhaps our discussion can lead to better understanding.

Having said, that, I wish to bring up something you said, and react to it. Please understand that this is being done in the name of communication.

You said,

" ... christians in Japan ... doing the work of the Lord."

--> This sentence can be interpreted in two ways. (1) people who strive to live a more spiritual life, and (2) people who proselytize. Which meaning were you intending?
 
Jcandres said:
I believe that people to entitled to their own faith, same as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. To some people faith is a monumental part of their life, to others it's just a routine thing they do. It's all based on how you look at things. In every religious person's view they our right. Catholics think they our right, Christians think they our right, Mormons think they have the solution, etc. So I may say that your all going to hell because your not saved, but that's because that's the belief of my religion. Granted I would not be forward like that with somone because that's rude. the same goes with every other religion, Mormons believe in life after the grave yet they are not lashed out upon when they talk about their religion.

Your argument doesn't seem to be taking into consideration people who don't have a religion or faith of any sort, thus making it irrelevant to most people on this topic.
Anyway, if there's anyone twisting around what ookamishi said it's certainly you. His disdain for non-christians and closed-minded attitude were quite obvious in the original post (not to mention extremely offensive to any thinking person).
 
Buntaro, I follow more of the first view. People who are trying to live a more spiritual life. By doing so they become an example to the people around them without slamming the "your going to burn in hell, if you don't repent", In their face. I think that's a major turn off of alot of people today. Alot of christians hag and nag, You know the usual your wrong for doing this, this, this and that. I think it would be better if instead of condemning people for what they do, try to help them with other areas of life. And if they start to believe in something that's good or them, if not then that's ok to. I believe each individual is entitled to their own belief or faith. And even if your an atheist, that is still "The doctrine that there is no God or gods." which in a sense is the belief, in the non-existence of a God. So I apologize if I may have seemed like I left out the "faithless". but I believe everyone chooses to believe in something. Even if it is nothing, that is still a choice on that belief. I hope this sheds some more light on where i was coming from in the last post.
 
Jcandres said:
And even if your an atheist, that is still "The doctrine that there is no God or gods." which in a sense is the belief, in the non-existence of a God.

Wrong again. Belief in the lack of god(s) is totally different from lack of belief in god(s). Atheism is the latter.
Also, there's a big difference between a belief supported by logic and evidence and one based on emotional hysteria and contradictory claims, it's ridiculous to try to put them in the same boat.
 
Evidence that I might say to this day has yet to be actually proven correct. Note Evolution, and the theories that surround it to this day are still a Theory, which is something that is not yet proven. And man are you really jumping the gun on this one. This is what I mean, people get down right ignorant when talking about this. Nobody asked you to read this, and nobody forced you to. Let's take what you said "Belief in a lack gods is totally different from a lack of belief in gods". All I have to say is this at some point a person makes a decision to whether or not they believe in an existence of a God or god. I don't care what god it is somewhere along the line that decision is made. it's the same for a person who is a christian, they made the decision that they believe in a God. And even if you say "There are no Gods", then that is what you believe, you believe that there are no Gods, if I have a disbelief in Ghosts it means:a rejection of belief in Ghosts. Meaning I do not believe in the existence, or the non-existence of Ghosts. All together I do not believe in them. So a lack of belief in gods is: a rejection of belief in the existence or non existence of gods. I really don't see what your problem is though, I have'nt made any derrogatory statements, or tried to push my opinion on anyone but your hell-bent on putting me in my place. Anyways if anyone else has any questions I'll be happy to answer them, I'm not trying to shove things in people's face or tell them their wrong because like I said, believe whatever makes you happy if you'd rather be mormon then a catholic, or a christian that's cool.
 
Jcandres,

I am glad to see that you and I see eye to eye on this. The first rule to any inter-religion discussion is respect, and I can see that you have that. As you have said, you are sensitive to the fact that many of us non-Christians have suffered at the hands of Christian proselytizers. I appreciate your sensitivity on the subject. If more Christians had your attitude, there would be a lot more communication on the subject. It is hoped that more discussions like this, between Christians and non-Christians, will be just as successful. All that is required is a little respect.

You said,

"I hope this sheds some more light on where i was coming from in the last post."

--> It does, indeed. It is sad that anyone who identifies themself as a Christian must identify themself as radical or non-radical (to coin an expression) before even the simplest of communication can happen. Yes, it has gotten that bad. Just look at the responses your post has attracted. Hopefully, all of this will have been time well spent.
 
Thanks. If you have any questions for me I'm open for discussion, I love to tell people what I believe, then in return find out what they believe and why they believe it. I would be happy to discuss more of this with you anytime.
 
Jcandres said:
Evidence that I might say to this day has yet to be actually proven correct. Note Evolution, and the theories that surround it to this day are still a Theory, which is something that is not yet proven.
You might be interested in this thread (<--link). Intelligent Design and Evolution are being discussed there. Are there any scientific theories that have been proven?
 
Jcandres said:
Evidence that I might say to this day has yet to be actually proven correct. Note Evolution, and the theories that surround it to this day are still a Theory, which is something that is not yet proven. And man are you really jumping the gun on this one. This is what I mean, people get down right ignorant when talking about this. Nobody asked you to read this, and nobody forced you to. Let's take what you said "Belief in a lack gods is totally different from a lack of belief in gods". All I have to say is this at some point a person makes a decision to whether or not they believe in an existence of a God or god. I don't care what god it is somewhere along the line that decision is made. it's the same for a person who is a christian, they made the decision that they believe in a God. And even if you say "There are no Gods", then that is what you believe, you believe that there are no Gods, if I have a disbelief in Ghosts it means:a rejection of belief in Ghosts. Meaning I do not believe in the existence, or the non-existence of Ghosts. All together I do not believe in them. So a lack of belief in gods is: a rejection of belief in the existence or non existence of gods. I really don't see what your problem is though, I have'nt made any derrogatory statements, or tried to push my opinion on anyone but your hell-bent on putting me in my place. Anyways if anyone else has any questions I'll be happy to answer them, I'm not trying to shove things in people's face or tell them their wrong because like I said, believe whatever makes you happy if you'd rather be mormon then a catholic, or a christian that's cool.

Jcandres, this is a discussion forum, if you post any glaring misconceptions or wrong information you should expect other members here to correct you. I don't have any "problem" with you either, not sure where you got that... Remember English is not my native language, so misunderstandings may occur.
If you have any questions about evolution just ask them at the thread Revenant linked to, learning what "theory" means would be a good starting point.
 
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