What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

Causative form implies some emotion

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
キャンディの位置を変え、にやりと口元を歪ませる。

Hi. I know I previously asked similar questions. But I just want to know if my following thinking can be a general tendency, if not a rule.

Using the causative form of an intransitive verb to talk about the movement of someone’s body parts can imply his/her (internal) mental activities or emotions, for example, in the sample sentence, the subject is experiencing joy or excitement or something. But if we say 口元を歪める, we simply mean the subject twists his/her mouth. Besides, if we say XXの口元が歪む, then we suggest that something external has happened that forces the subject to do so.
I get this kind of explanation elsewhere but I’m not sure if this guidance applies to any verb that is connected to the movement of body parts.
What do you thinking of my reasoning? Does it make sense?
Thank you.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
16,881
Reaction score
3,142
Well, I don't think it's external vs. internal cause/reason. For instance, the cause is in the subject in 苦痛で口元が歪んだ。. I think it's more likely "subjective vs. objective description" or "volitional vs. non-volitional action", as I wrote previously in your thread. As I wrote there, it seems to me that "body part を transitive verb" is the most common in most cases.

腕を伸ばす volitional
腕が伸びる non-volitional/potential
腕を伸びさせる unnatural

目を動かす volitional
目が動く non-volitional/potential
目を動かせる only used as the potential of 動かす, and never used as the causative of 動く

指を曲げる volitional
指が曲がる non-volitional/potential
指を曲がらせる unnatural

足を上げる volitional
足が上がる non-volitional/potential
足を上がらせる unnatural

胸を痛める
胸が痛む
胸を痛ませる
痛める and 痛む are both non-volitional in this case.
痛ませる is rarely used for the subject's action. When used for the subject, it's an objective description for themselves, and it suggests the existence of the external cause/reason.

As for your example, にやりと口元を歪める also can express the subject's mental activities or emotions. It's the same even for キャンディの位置を変えると、にやりと口元が歪む。 because of にやりと. It's just the last one is an objective description, not from the subject's viewpoint.
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
Thanks a lot.
痛ませる is rarely used for the subject's action. When used for the subject, it's an objective description for themselves, and it suggests the existence of the external cause/reason.
So the causative form can also suggest external causes? I thought the causative form must suggest some internal reasons.
Actually the reasoning in op is inspired by the explanation from the following link:

link removed

To what extent do you agree or disagree with the explanation above?
(If duplicating the same topic in different forums is frowned on here, I’m sorry.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
16,881
Reaction score
3,142
As I already wrote, I don't think "external vs. internal cause/reason" is the key. As for the examples you found in other forum, the problem is that 硬直する or 踊る don't have the transitive counterpart (ダンスを踊る or バレエを踊る are possible, but body part を踊る is not). There is no other choice than to use the causative form of the intransitive verb in these cases.

If duplicating the same topic in different forums is frowned on here, I’m sorry.
It's OK to ask the same topic for confirmation, but I don't think it's appropriate to paste a direct link of other forum as a manner in general. I removed the link (including the one in your another thread).
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
Thanks for the response! It seems this kind of use of the causative form is open to interpretation.
As I already wrote, I don't think "external vs. internal cause/reason" is the key. As for the examples you found in other forum, the problem is that 硬直する or 踊る don't have the transitive counterpart (ダンスを踊る or バレエを踊る are possible, but body part を踊る is not). There is no other choice than to use the causative form of the intransitive verb in these cases.
But the problem arises when some intransitive verbs that have their transitive counterparts are used in the causative form.
For example,
ふと、士道の視線に気づいたのか、少女が目を書面から外し、こちらに向けてくる。
「‥…っ」
士道は息を詰まらせると、気まずそうに目を背けた。

There are three forms for the underlined part:
息を詰まらせる
息を詰める
息が詰まる

Do you think 息を詰まらせる and 息を詰める are the same since both of them are "body part を transitive verb"?

And this example that was discussed previously:
士道は今さらながら身を竦ませた

There are also three forms for the underlined part:
身を竦ませた
身を竦めた
身が竦んだ

Do you think 身を竦ませた and 身を竦めた are the same since both of them are "body part を transitive verb" (if we take the the example out of context)?

Generally speaking, what do you think is the difference between intransitive verb in causative form and its corresponding transitive verb when they are used to describe an action of one's body part?

It's OK to ask the same topic for confirmation, but I don't think it's appropriate to paste a direct link of other forum as a manner in general. I removed the link (including the one in your another thread).
OK. I see.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
16,881
Reaction score
3,142
詰まらせる is usually not called a transitive verb. It's the causative form of 詰まる.
Anyway, 息を詰まらせる has an external cause "because of ~", and 息を詰める is the subject's volitional action. This might be because both 息が詰まる and 息を詰める work as a set phrase, meaning 息が止まる and 息を止める, respectively.

Incidentally, 喉/鼻/言葉/声を詰まらせる don't have a volitional nuance, and 喉/鼻/言葉/声を詰める are not common. I already gave you my idea, but there are many variations and exceptions, after all.
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
Thank you again.

So can I think, as a general guidance (if there is one), the causative form of an intransitive verb is usually non-volitional/objective description while its transitive counterpart is usually volitional/subjective description?
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
I would say the causative form of an intransitive verb is uncommon/unnatural, as I already wrote.
Hi. Toritoribe-san.
I have found this example:
しかしそう尋ねるのもなんだか恥ずかしくて、僕はとにかく気持ちを落ちつかせるためにあらためて部屋を見回す。
I think this may be an exception to your comment? Why is causative form 落ちつかせる used here?
Thank you.
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
Thank you.
That clearly has a "forced" nuance,
Do you mean the speaker forced himself? Or He was forced?
Generally speaking, does the causative form of an intransitive verb have this nuance in most cases?
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
キャンディの位置を変え、にやりと口元を歪ませる。
As for your example, にやりと口元を歪める also can express the subject's mental activities or emotions. It's the same even for キャンディの位置を変えると、にやりと口元が歪む。 because of にやりと. It's just the last one is an objective description, not from the subject's viewpoint.
Hi, toritoribe-san. I have read this thread again, but I still don’t get the difference between にやりと口元を歪める and にやりと口元を歪ませる. All you have told me is that both are just subjective description. Are they just the same (the writer likes to use causative form of intransitive verb)?

And I also found these examples.
  1. そしてそのまま顔をうつむかせ、「ぅえ……っ、ぇ……っ」と嗚咽を漏らし始める。
  2. そして、ウサギの耳付きフードをきゅっと握って顔をうつむけ、目元を隠すようにしながらたどたどしく言ってくる。
Are 俯かせる and 俯ける just the same?
 
Last edited:

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
16,881
Reaction score
3,142
Are they just the same (the writer likes to use causative form of intransitive verb)?
In that context, yes. It seems to be just the author's preference to me.

Are 俯かせる and 俯ける just the same?
I checked in a corpus. It might be able to say that うつむかせる tends to be preferred in more modern/colloquial descriptions, but the meaning is the same and they are interchangeable.
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
Incidentally, 喉/鼻/言葉/声を詰まらせる don't have a volitional nuance, and 喉/鼻/言葉/声を詰める are not common.
Hi. Does the above quote mean 息/喉/鼻/言葉/声を詰まらせる are always non-volitional actions and imply an external cause “because of ~”?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
16,881
Reaction score
3,142
There can be cases where those are used in a special context, for instance 他人を欺くため、わざと声を詰まらせた, so it's not "always". (I don't know why, but わざと言葉を詰まらせた sounds odd to me as if it's a causative action to someone else. I would use わざと言葉に/が詰まった振りをした instead. It might be the problem of collocation.)
 

zuotengdazuo

Sempai
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
708
Reaction score
13
Thank you. I see. I have just come across some cases of 息/喉/鼻/言葉/声を詰まらせる in my reading again and I would say they are all non-volitional uses (the volitional use seems uncommon).
 
Top Bottom